Flat Plane Crank LS1

[Ken Roberts]

Ken, how did you get a 4.125" bore on a LS3/LSA block? Did you resleeve it? The stock bore on an LS3/LSA/L92 is 4.06"

Yes the block was drysleeved. ERL Performance built the short block. They installed Katech piston oil squirters. The stock oil squirters would not fit after resleeving. The sleeves are made from ductile iron (three times harder than stock iron sleeves) and are longer than stock.

 

[Mark Hamstra]

The sleeves are made from ductile iron (three times harder than stock iron sleeves)

No. Ductile iron has better tensile strength, yield strength, and toughness than gray cast iron, but it is not substantially harder. In fact, some grades of ductile iron are actually softer than gray cast iron.

 

[Mick Ridley]

Hi Troy,

Intresting program you have there, but im bit confused.

In the text, you say the LS1 block gives 617 hp @ 8000rpm, but the graph shows that peak power is 614 hp at about 7200/7300 rpm....

In the article I posted before about cams for the LS1 engine

Comparing LS1 Cams

In the tests for the cams, the second and third tests were inconclusive, because the rev limiters cut in, and it wasnt possible to run the cams up to their full potential.

It would be intresting if you were to put the values of that engine, and the different cams, into your program,to see what the cams would have given, had the rev liliters not cut in..

I wish you the best of luck with your project.

 

[Troy Truglio]

Mick
When I put in the information to caculate the numbers I need to give it a range of rpm. I start with, lets say, 2000 and go to 8500. I am allowed 10 rpm points so I need to spread them out by about 600-750rpm depending on where I started. Now I just ran my engine from 7000-8000 and did 100 rpm, so starting at 7000 I got 595,600,604,608,613,616,618,617,615,609. So when looking at that I can say I got 618 hp at 7600 rpm. So I can call my car the SL-C 618. Haha

I took an LS1, took off the acc and threw in a header with exhaust. With the cams I cam up with almost the same numbers, but third cam did not go as high and went flat from what they had. I think the intake might be a real limiting factor here. Might have been too much cam for the engine specs. There are so many little things to put in and not having all the specs can be hard.

Now I learning about what rods and pistons to get. Oh the fun. Which con rods to get and which pistons. I have decided on the 3.905, -2 to -4 dish flat top with reliefts, .927 pin. I need to get pistons before the rods so I can get the right ones. I am gathering info the differnt pistons on weights and what to choose. I have this list, JE, Wiseco, Mahle, CP and Diamond. I am looking up weights.

Mahles look nice so far. Lightest, forged, comp height is ok. Some of the lighter pistons have a really small comp height so the weight savings is offset by the con rod length and added weight there.

I could also just have the piston deck height higher with a longer rod instead of shaving the head to get what I want. Choices.

AI emailed me finally so I will talk with them about what they think would be the best combination.

 

[Ben Whittle]

I don't mean to sound like a dick here and I also hate to rain on ingenuity but, originally you were going for cheap and cheerful and now you're attempting something that even Lingenfelter is taking a long run up at, with lots of experience and money behind them.... by yourself.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I love what you're doing, I'm just curious.

 

[Troy Truglio]

I don't mean to sound like a dick here and I also hate to rain on ingenuity but, originally you were going for cheap and cheerful and now you're attempting something that even Lingenfelter is taking a long run up at, with lots of experience and money behind them.... by yourself.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I love what you're doing, I'm just curious.

That is a good fair question and one I asked myself for a while. I bought two v6 motors for cheap to start with. I was just about to start collecting items to build the one up to twin turbo and started to add up cost and by the time I was done to run 15-18 psi I would have about 600hp and have spent 10-12k on it. Then I worried about how reliable it would be and is that really what I want. I think the item that put me over was the Ems stand alone I should have bought that would cost like 3k.

I then went to a track day again and heard a f430 with a apovovatick (sp) exhaust and could not get it out of my head. This is my dream car so I should not go cheap on it like that was my thought. So I just said to myself to build what I want and get what I want. Sure, it will cost more and probably be a bit slower in a straight line than the TT v6, but on a track the linear pull of the na engine should more than make up for it. The cost for parts and labor when done will be like 15k or so. If I only wanted to rev to 7000 it would be half, but I want to rev and to do that cost money.

So here I am making a flat plane crank engine. There really is no good reason to do it except for the sound and feel of the engine. In reality I should just get an ls367/480 and be done, but I am obsessed with it sounding a certain way. I also remember seeing an ultima on the dyno that had a custom v12 that just sounded amazing. To me the sound of the engine at full tilt makes the car and a screaming engine is best. If booming engine sound would have been what I wanted then I would have saved time and money for sure.

So now you all know I have some serious issues and how I am dealing with it. I like to be different and innovative, but that does not always work out well so I am trying to do as much research as I can to make it happen. The people I am dealing with are confident and do am I now. It is funny how 90% of the people do not even know what a flat plane crank engine is and they are big time builders and companies. Also, doing something that cost more and gets less Hp is perplexing to most, even myself at times, but I hope to get a crazy rev happy motor that screams when done.

On a side note I heard a r1 scream by me at 10k rpm with an aftermarket exhaust. What about using 4 slip on type of bike mufflers? Might have a cool sound. Each exh side would be 4-2-1-2.

 

[Tyson Silva]

So what if you build this thing and the exhaust sounds like crap? Seems like a whole bunch of money for the chase of a particular 'sound' that might not be there. I come from the motorcycle world having owned a performance shop and trackday/racing school for many years. There are many people that wanted to buy an exhaust for a particular sound....I always thought that was kinda funny. I love the way the current R1 sounds with a race system as well. However, Yamaha spent $$$$$ on development. The factory machines have done well. Privateer efforts have been prone to spectacular crankshaft failures with heavy track usage. If that happens, they could just order a new one from Yamaha for $950. My point is, if you build this engine, component failure will be far more expensive for you versus the guy with the standard LSx. You can't just order another one up as easily and you bear the development costs on your shoulders alone.

 

[Troy Truglio]

All true and I guess time will tell. If it does not sound great I will try to rework the exhaust. If it breaks I guess I fix it. That is the logical half that says just get an ls476/480. Time will tell.

 

[Ron Earp]

Maybe we should have led in with this:

:nice:

 

[Rudy]

Hey Troy, never mind the naysayers. If you pull this off, you will accomplish something very big and be surprised at how many people also want what you are going after. Doesn't matter how many mufflers you put on a cross plane it will still rev up and down and sound like one. There is a saying "you can't argue about taste". Maybe some people like that their exotic looking car sounds like a pickup truck with headers, can't argue against that! I personally like the exotic car to sound like an exotic car, can't argue against that either! My point is, you want that sound GO FOR IT! But, let's not forget that this baby is putting out 618 hp NA out of a 5.0 liter! IT certainly isn't just sound! It's your money, your time, your sweat, it's not being funded by an Obama green jobs initiative, you're not asking for donations, etc. It seems to me that you are very close. You have the crank, cams and rods sorted out. Its time to build it man. It will definitely sound "right" because it is structurally different than 99.99% of the V8's out there. You can sound tune later. Good Luck and Go For It.

 

[Troy Truglio]

Rudy
Thanks. Inspiration. Yah, 618 na Hp out of 5.0l should be fun and then sound crazy fun also. We will see. I have done a few things with engines in the past that is crazy so who knows.

Btw. I have already starting building it as the crank is ordered. Now I wait the 16 weeks to get it.

 

[Rudy]

16 weeks?? Too long to wait. I want to hear it now! JK looking forward to it. Also, its great to hear some of the constructive input on this forum.

 

[Josh]

You want a nice sound......run the pipes through Meisterschaft mufflers. It will sound great.

 

[Jac Mac]

I like making things better as well..

 

[Ben Whittle]

I wouldn't say I'm a naysayer at all, just curious as to what your goals are, I'd be hypocrite otherwise since I would choose an engine based on how it sounds.

Given that a pushrod, 16v, cross plane crank V8 such as the LS3 sounds quite different to a DOHC, 32v, cross plane crank V8 such as the Audi 4.2 V8 or the Merc 5.5 AMG V8, I'm wondering how the sound of a pushrod, 16v, flat plane crank V8 such as the one you are making will sound in comparison to a DOHC, 32v, flat plane crank V8 such as the Ferrari engine you like the sound of.

I haven't heard the Coyote motor yet properly but I do know everyone says it sounds different to the LS3, what I am curious about is if it sounds like the Audi/Merc engines.

I always thought that it wasn't just a simple case of making a flat plane crank with the correct cam and programming to go with, I thought that the balancer shaft was required otherwise why would they bother?

I sincerely hope you achieve your goals, I'm not putting you down at all.

 

[Troy Truglio]

Ben
Interesting points. My goal, have an amazing sounding high revving V8 that makes 500hp or more. The sound is important so we will see how it finishes up and it sucks I have to wait like 6 months to hear it. I need to get all the parts and the car, build the car, put the engine in it, tune it and get it all ready for life. That takes time. The only good thing is that I have major OCD when things like this happen so I am thinking spring time.

I am thinking a lot goes into the sound of the exhaust for sure, if not everything. Bore and stroke, vavle train, exhaust design, firing order. The 16V vs DOHC, maybe the exhaust being divided and then back into one makes a difference. I am thinking it might have a lot to do with three major factors. First is the bore and stroke of the engine. The non US cross plane v8's seem to have a shorter stroke than the american ones. I would think this has something to do it with it for sure and my engine will be s smaller displacement engine with a 3.187 stroke. The next is the firing order and being a 180 that shouldbe different. The last is the exhaust setup. I will do a 4-2-1-2 on each side to start wtih it and see how it sounds. Good thing is I can make my own exhaust systems and might make some different ones to see how it comes out when done. So I am thinking that no mater what my engine will sound different than anything else, so that is good, but I hope to make it scream.

I am not sure what effect, if any, the balancer shaft has on the exh sound.

I have not looked into the exhaust system designs to much yet as I am working on the interanls and getting to know that as much as possible. Each choice effects the next 10. Right now I am deciding on pistons and which to get as that effects the con rod size and choice.

I am thinking Mahle pistons as choice #1 right now and then either Carillo or R and R con rods. Crank and cam is done and figured out. The rest is basically off the shelf parts and these are the ones that take a long time. Once all that is done I will start looking into exhaust desings.

I just watched this video below. The cross plane ones sound very similar to me. The audi 4.2 is a little different, but the bigger merc ones sound a bit more american to me and this might have to do with the displacement factor. So it is interesting. The Ferrari's sure do sound totally different. It sure does make me ponder what mine will sound like. Anyway I look at it it will be different sounding for sure and I will have a high revving NA V8 with 618hp. So all will be good.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlulS0niOqs]Best V8 Sound :Ferrari,Mercedes,Aston... - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Troy Truglio]

Another compelation video. The first 20 seconds. OMG. The vette at the 4:30 mark sounds great also. Maybe it will be a combo of the two and be unique with the best attributes of both. Dang, this is really making me wonder what it will sound like when done. Uggg. A bark, a scream, a grumble, all really angry combo. hmm.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5D1ToZ6igs]The Ultimate Car Exhaust Sounds - Compilation - YouTube[/ame]

Another one.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taVw2i3e5aE&feature=related]SUPERCARS SOUNDS OF 2010! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Troy Truglio]

Still my favorite. Honda HSV-010 3.4L V8 3.7 bore 2.5 stroke, 10,500rpm. I wish I knew how to get the exhaust note like that. Sure seems like when watching all these videos that he shorter the stroke to more scream, but maybe that is my wishfull thinking.

Maybe I need to do 8-4-2-1

“We decided to achieve a sensual sound that signifies a Honda, by adopting a manifold with 8-4-2-1 layout. We have already used a single-muffler exhaust system for the NSX-GT, and we are confident that the HSV-010 GT with this layout will also realize both the sound and the engine performance that we seek. Due to the environmental concerns, the regulations require the machine to be equipped with a catalyzer starting in 2010.”
“During development, we were able to improve engine output by modifying the exhaust pipe layout, but we decided to drop this idea because the sound got worse. We were that persistent about getting that sensual sound!”

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ7p6avK3K8]Honda HSV-010 EPSON - Honda's all new Super GT car - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ7p6avK3K8]Honda HSV-010 EPSON - Honda's all new Super GT car - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jac Mac]

While I can appreciate why your wanting to go with the flat plane crank, I reckon that a better more marketable solution would be as follows.
You have to accept that the SLC is not very friendly to a crossover or complex exhaust system due to the nature of the framework around the rear suspension area.
As already mentioned exhaust system primary lengths for modern high RPM engine speeds are too short to allow a 180° crossover system like the GT40.
What is really needed is a cylinder head with the ports reversed..eg exhaust into center of Vee, Intake outboard. Now there just might be a market for such an item if it can be made for the Chev engine , same head for all capacities as long as they have same bore centers, just change piston dish volume to juggle compression ratio's, now you can use all 'off the shelf'' components for the block assy, preferably lightest for high RPM. The exhaust can now be any combo you wish to dream up.....

 

[Josh]

Troy, trust me, Meisterschaft or Eisenmann. I may not build cars, I modify them, and modify expensive ones. Meisterschaft and Eisenmann make exhausts for many platforms and they all have a distinct menacing sound, a sound you and me like. Go to youtube and search, trust me.