I thought about one of these engine too. However, I don't see them being very cost effect. Parts and parts are probably a nightmare to find.
On the plus side,, the engine is about 100lbs lighter than an LS(x)
Flat Plane Crank LS1
- Thread starter Troymx576
- Start date
I thought about one of these engine too. However, I don't see them being very cost effect. Parts and parts are probably a nightmare to find.
On the plus side,, the engine is about 100lbs lighter than an LS(x)
found you a deal troy, jump on it 
LS1 / 4l60e swap from '00 trans am
you can get all the sensors/harness/oilpan from that. sell off the accessories for 400, and trans for 400 and the longblock for 500-600 and you'll get all the stuff you need for nothing practically
LS1 / 4l60e swap from '00 trans am
you can get all the sensors/harness/oilpan from that. sell off the accessories for 400, and trans for 400 and the longblock for 500-600 and you'll get all the stuff you need for nothing practically
NIce. I will contact him and try to get a deal. I have found a few ls1 vette ones for less than 2k.
Merim
Thanks for the link. I emailed and I might pick it up tommorrow. He has not pulled the motor so I can get the entire car, pull the motor, sell off what I can and scrap the rest so it might not cost me much. If I can sell enough easy then it mgiht be free. Then get a LS3 block. Anyone got one for sale? Or a good place to buy a new one?
Thanks for the link. I emailed and I might pick it up tommorrow. He has not pulled the motor so I can get the entire car, pull the motor, sell off what I can and scrap the rest so it might not cost me much. If I can sell enough easy then it mgiht be free. Then get a LS3 block. Anyone got one for sale? Or a good place to buy a new one?
I can't wait so see what you come up with! If it works (and it sounds like you've done your homework) you should make a conversion kit that you could market. I'm not sure the demand would be very high but I think you could easily make your initial investment back. I, for one, know I would be sending you a deposit right now if it was available. I too am of the same mindset about the sound coming from a SLC. The cross plane V8 rumble just doesn't work for me. I've been scouring the web for 360F1 wrecks for months now thinking that was the best (albeit a very expensive) option. You have my full and undivided attention
I might do a conversion, we will see. Let's see how much Hp I make first and make sure it is all good.
Rob (Messa) has a 360 engine/transaxle for sale (has or had, I don't know)
Thanks for the heads up but I'm still a minimum of 2 years out before I can take on a SLC project. I have too many expensive projects going right now. I'm hoping that in that time 430 wrecks will become cheaper. I get to beat on a 430 Spider pretty often and have become infatuated with that drivetrain and the sound that comes from it. I've NEVER been a soft top fan but that car has slightly changed my perspective. This flat plane LS1 idea has me intrigued though especially after hearing that 180 headers won't fit. Now a flat plane quad cam 3UZ... That would be amazing...
hope you get the full car troy, you'll get everything you need. drop the engine/trans as one out the bottom, it's the easiest way. Here's the way I do it...
for the block, are you planning stock bore pistons for the ls3? I would check with scoggins dickey or pace performance and see if your local dealer would match it. it's just a little shy of 1500 last time I looked.
I'll be curious how that cam is at the lower rpms. that's a big cam and on a 107 I think it's going to have a lot of lope, but i'm for from an expert in this space. here's my camaro with the 233/241 @.050 w .600/.600 lift on a 112, this is idle around 950-1000rpm. Has some decent chop.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RBUxKeZdd8]24x lt1 w 233/241 112 .600/.600 cam - YouTube[/ame]
for the block, are you planning stock bore pistons for the ls3? I would check with scoggins dickey or pace performance and see if your local dealer would match it. it's just a little shy of 1500 last time I looked.
I'll be curious how that cam is at the lower rpms. that's a big cam and on a 107 I think it's going to have a lot of lope, but i'm for from an expert in this space. here's my camaro with the 233/241 @.050 w .600/.600 lift on a 112, this is idle around 950-1000rpm. Has some decent chop.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RBUxKeZdd8]24x lt1 w 233/241 112 .600/.600 cam - YouTube[/ame]
I did get the entire car. A 2000 Trans Am Formula. So I can sell off some items to get back some money and then scrap the rest. I will try to sell whatever I can to get some money out of it before I send it off to its final destination.
On the motor I am still deciding on the LS1 block and heads, LS3 with LS1 heads or LS3 block and L92 LS3 heads. I purchased an engine analizer software program so I can play with the different items I want to have and see which combination is best. If anyone wants me to put in their engine specs I can see what the hp and range comes out to be. It has a nice optimaztion view that lets me know what would be the best size exhaust, etc so I can play around with it.
The lopy idle might not be that bad, in a good way, as I think that sounds pretty bad ass. I wonder if the flat plane crank would change that at all?
On the motor I am still deciding on the LS1 block and heads, LS3 with LS1 heads or LS3 block and L92 LS3 heads. I purchased an engine analizer software program so I can play with the different items I want to have and see which combination is best. If anyone wants me to put in their engine specs I can see what the hp and range comes out to be. It has a nice optimaztion view that lets me know what would be the best size exhaust, etc so I can play around with it.
The lopy idle might not be that bad, in a good way, as I think that sounds pretty bad ass. I wonder if the flat plane crank would change that at all?
there are a few guys that build these engines that it may be worth reaching out to who build and race these engines. Kurt Urban, Katech, LMP in texas for example and see which block / head combo they like for what you are doing. I would also try to get to Tony Mamo at AFR as he has put combos together for the top end of of a ls1 that has made 500rwhp with his heads/cam/intake combos. That's damn impressive on 346ci.
on the car you got, I'm thinking it came with a ls6 intake, if so, that is a keeper unless you want to sell (going rate is 275-300) just for the intake and bolts.
on the car you got, I'm thinking it came with a ls6 intake, if so, that is a keeper unless you want to sell (going rate is 275-300) just for the intake and bolts.
Ken Roberts
Supporter
2000 Tran Am has the LS1 intake. The change over to LS6 intakes didn't happen till 2001.
The best LS3 block to use at a reasonable price is the LSA block used in the CTS V. It has piston oil squirters factory installed. That's what I'm using although it now is a 427cu in.
The best LS3 block to use at a reasonable price is the LSA block used in the CTS V. It has piston oil squirters factory installed. That's what I'm using although it now is a 427cu in.
I just put in the specifics for my engine. With an LS1 block and fully ported head with 2.02/1.60 I get 617hp at 8,000rpm and 455fttq at 6000.
Now with an LS3 block and LS1 heads same as above. 642rhp at 7500rpm and 500tq at 5500 and 6000rpm. So about 30hp for the LS3 block and this makes some sense as the bigger would make more, but it is 9% larger so you would think it would automatically make 9% more power, but there are many many other factors to consider.
Now with an LS3 block and L92 heads ported I get 648hp at 8000rpm and 500tq from 5500-7000rpm.
So this makes me wonder why the larger heads do not do as much. Well the exh valve size is the same and maybe that is part of it and also the velocity in the runner at the higher rpms can cause it.
So this tells me that the LS1 block and heads will be more than enough power for me. Revving the engine helps with hp numbers for sure. 617hp is a nice sexy number to me. I am glad I got the program now as it will save me the money I thought I was going to get for the LS3 block. The LS3 did have more in the mid range and below vs peak power so it would be better there, but at what cost though? If I can find a block cheap enough then yes, but at this point the LS1 5.0L should do me fine.
BTW- having the standard long runner intake versus the custom 5" short runner intake made like a 75hp difference from mid on up. It was huge.
Here is a pic of the graph of the LS1 vs LS3 flat plane short stroke.
Now with an LS3 block and LS1 heads same as above. 642rhp at 7500rpm and 500tq at 5500 and 6000rpm. So about 30hp for the LS3 block and this makes some sense as the bigger would make more, but it is 9% larger so you would think it would automatically make 9% more power, but there are many many other factors to consider.
Now with an LS3 block and L92 heads ported I get 648hp at 8000rpm and 500tq from 5500-7000rpm.
So this makes me wonder why the larger heads do not do as much. Well the exh valve size is the same and maybe that is part of it and also the velocity in the runner at the higher rpms can cause it.
So this tells me that the LS1 block and heads will be more than enough power for me. Revving the engine helps with hp numbers for sure. 617hp is a nice sexy number to me. I am glad I got the program now as it will save me the money I thought I was going to get for the LS3 block. The LS3 did have more in the mid range and below vs peak power so it would be better there, but at what cost though? If I can find a block cheap enough then yes, but at this point the LS1 5.0L should do me fine.
BTW- having the standard long runner intake versus the custom 5" short runner intake made like a 75hp difference from mid on up. It was huge.
Here is a pic of the graph of the LS1 vs LS3 flat plane short stroke.
Ken Roberts
Supporter
My 427 LS3/LSA engine with Advanced Induction worked over LS3 heads and a cam with 234/242 duration and .602/.615 lift will be around 560 flywheel hp. There is absolutely no way you'll even come close to the numbers you had that program spit out.
For you to spin a LS engine to 7500/8000 rpm you'll need to invest in shaft mounted rockers at $2000. Even then you'll be living on borrowed time for longevity.
I would suggest you start talking with professional engine builders and others that have run similar combinations to what you are planning.
A stock LS plastic manifold runs out of steam at 6200rpm. You would at least need a Fast intake, 90mm or larger t body.
Are these numbers with a power adder like twin turbo chargers or supercharged?
For you to spin a LS engine to 7500/8000 rpm you'll need to invest in shaft mounted rockers at $2000. Even then you'll be living on borrowed time for longevity.
I would suggest you start talking with professional engine builders and others that have run similar combinations to what you are planning.
A stock LS plastic manifold runs out of steam at 6200rpm. You would at least need a Fast intake, 90mm or larger t body.
Are these numbers with a power adder like twin turbo chargers or supercharged?
Ken, can you send me all your numbers on your engine and I can put it in. I can put them in and see what it will make and see if the numbers are similar.
I think they might be a little high from what I know, but not all that much. I am reving the piss out of it and the higher the rpm the more hp, but less torque. So it is all relative. I am using a custom short runner intake. At 6000 rpm I would make around 500hp and that makes sense since it is fully build with nasty cams. If it was regular engine I would have a longer intake and make a bit more down low. Shoot, if I make 500rwhp I will be happy at this point. But the numbers might be a little higher, but if I change one thing or another it should give me an idea of what is workign better or not. I will also have the sold roller cam with Jesel rockers.
I think they might be a little high from what I know, but not all that much. I am reving the piss out of it and the higher the rpm the more hp, but less torque. So it is all relative. I am using a custom short runner intake. At 6000 rpm I would make around 500hp and that makes sense since it is fully build with nasty cams. If it was regular engine I would have a longer intake and make a bit more down low. Shoot, if I make 500rwhp I will be happy at this point. But the numbers might be a little higher, but if I change one thing or another it should give me an idea of what is workign better or not. I will also have the sold roller cam with Jesel rockers.
Ken. I just put in these parameters for the 427 so let me know if it is correct. 4.1 bore 4.0 stroke, 6.0 con rod, stock bearings, LS3 head, 2.16I 1.60E with like 270cc and good flow, 11:1 compression, 234/242 cams with .602/.615 lift, stock intake that is about 90% efficient with 10" runners 2" diam, exh 1.75 ID 19" long 95% efficient using a tube header. I came up with a max hp of 566. This is right in the ballpark of what your engine guy said and makes sense and had 539fttq at 4500. The reason I am making more hp is that I am revving higher. Now, in reality your engine is more powerful, has more tq and should be a much faster motor. HP numbers can be deceiving when just looking at that alone. Your engine will have 100tq more so that can be much better.
Ken Roberts
Supporter
To get LS1 heads to flow as good as bone stock LS3 heads you will be spending almost twice the price. LS3 heads can be had for $600 a pair complete.
Here are my engine specs.....427 LSA block(LS3). 11 to 1 compression. 4.125 bore, 4" stroke, -8cc FT piston. 70cc LS3 heads reworked by Advanced Induction (270CC intake runner) 1.7 rockers. PSI 1511 beehive valve springs.
234/242 283/294 .602/.615 gross lift 114LSA +1 advance. 113 installed intake centerline
LS7 headers with 3" exhaust
Here are my engine specs.....427 LSA block(LS3). 11 to 1 compression. 4.125 bore, 4" stroke, -8cc FT piston. 70cc LS3 heads reworked by Advanced Induction (270CC intake runner) 1.7 rockers. PSI 1511 beehive valve springs.
234/242 283/294 .602/.615 gross lift 114LSA +1 advance. 113 installed intake centerline
LS7 headers with 3" exhaust
Ken, when you said AI LS3 I assumed the 270cc runner. The rest I pretty much guessed correclty. I had the bore a tiny bit off but had the cubic inch volume correct. On the header I will keep it as a tube type assumption because the LS7 ones are supposed to be really really good. I get the same basic numbers 557hp and 547tq and as your engine builder.I am also thinking you might only rev to like 6500 because power drops off and piston speed is 4333 at 6500 and 4667 at 7000. My piston speed at 8500 is 4515. That should be a nasty nice motor and it looks amazing. So I am starting to trust this program a bit more now.
I also adjusted the intake length on mine to get more hp average, under the curve. The Max hp went down to like 595, a 20hp loss, but overall better mid range and only hurt at the very very top. Things like that make the program worth it to me when I am designing and make the intake, header and other things.
If anyone has all their engine build info and want to throw it over to me let me know. I can put it in. There is also an optomize option which lets me know what some of the specifics are best.
I also adjusted the intake length on mine to get more hp average, under the curve. The Max hp went down to like 595, a 20hp loss, but overall better mid range and only hurt at the very very top. Things like that make the program worth it to me when I am designing and make the intake, header and other things.
If anyone has all their engine build info and want to throw it over to me let me know. I can put it in. There is also an optomize option which lets me know what some of the specifics are best.
Ken Roberts
Supporter
Thanks for running the program. Seems fairly accurate. My goals are for a track days type of car that can also easily be driven on the street with not too much difficulty in creating the tune. Reliability and longevity was also considered.
Have fun with your build. Hope the flat plane type of crank works out for you. Can't wait to hear the difference.
Have fun with your build. Hope the flat plane type of crank works out for you. Can't wait to hear the difference.
