Fuel pump discussion.

Which one works..
As we had a discussion in somebody elses buildtopic and where getting real off topic there, Ill just start a new thread.

In my experaince, Facet is crab. They wont deliver enough under pressure creating lean situations especialy under hot situations.
Had 5 failures in 7 years.

In my experiance, the Holley red delivers. Solved all my issues.
My experiance,
GP2 Capri 3.0 tripple 40s
Capri 3.5 V8 supercharged
73 Ford F250 400ci

Going to fit Carter P4600HP series on my GT as specs are promissing.

Frank Cat, as you wouldn't discus your thoughts on that other topic, please share your thoughts overhere so we all have benefit.
 
Facet Red Top flows 40 Us Gph free flow
Facet Blue top flows 45 Us Gph free flow ( differs by intern gauze filter from the Red Top).

Holley Red flows 97 Us Gph free flow - 67 Us Gph @ 5psi
Carter P4600HP flows 100 Us Gph free flow.

In my experiance the hotter the pump gets, the less flow the'll have. Ive seen Facet pumps doing less then 15Gph on a hot lap.
Especialy on a multy carb setup the'll tend to fail to keep up demand of filling all the fuel bowls.
And with less fuel in a fuel bowl, mixture will go lean as mixture is float height related. ( fuel height in emulsion tubes..).

Facet pumps are plunger type that wears fast in their bore. probably caused by modern fuels that has less lubrication and modern fuels have a lower boiling point.
Facet did changer their design, the older 25years ago pumps did stop ticking when on pressure while the later ones allways tick full speed.
The Holley Red is a vane type pump. Vanes will wear also but has less influence as the"ll just slide out further compensating the wear.
The carter is also a vane style pump.

My experiance,
I am a well known carb specialist in Holland, cars & bikes. But these days I only pick the fruits I like..
I work a lot with wideband AFR gauges to set up cars. Starting with aircorrection, then main jet ending with idle jet.
Still young of mind, eager to learn from other specialists.

Have AFR systems in most of my toys so I monitor anything going on while on a ride. AFR gauge is most importand to oil pressure gauge IMO.
 

Randy V

Admin
Lifetime Supporter
You might want to give the Facet Dura-Lift "LIFTING" fuel pump a look. You will need a pressure regulator. These pumps are beasts that can run dry for days without damaging themselves.

Also - the "Plunger" type pumps are not all bad. The venerable Stewart Warner SW240a pump was such a pump and they were exceptionally long lived.
I've never done carbs in Holland, but many hundreds over the past 50 years here in the states. I agree with you regarding wide-band tuning being quite valuable - however - if your fuel pressure is too high, it can also masquerade itself as poor jetting, sunken float, blown power valve, accelerator pump nozzle pull-over, et al...
 
I've had the best luck with Carter 4600HP. Worst luck with Holley gerotor pump. Shaft seals leaked after just a couple of years (twice). The Carter supplies plenty of fuel for track days with my Roush 427SR.
 

Neil

Supporter
I also recommend the Carter 4600HP fuel pump. Make sure your wiring is adequate and an auto-reset circuit breaker is helpful.
 

Chuck

Supporter
I used the Holly HP125 for several years and found it had a fundamental flow: It needs to be mounted below the level of the bottom of the fuel tank to work properly. It does not like to lift.

The Facet Dura Lift pumps we used to replace the Hollys have worked splendidly. I detailed the project three years ago on our build blog

https://www.gt40s.com/threads/chuck-and-ryans-rcr-build.22083/page-51

The Facet Dura Lift has several factors that make it ideal:

1. It likes to lift, so the pump can be mounted above the level of the fuel tank

2. It has a built in filter

3. It has a check valve, which is important if there are separate pumps for the two tanks.

4. They have a high flow rate (50 gph is memory serves me)

5. They are made in the USA.
 
Facet Duralift is an interesting choice. Is commonly used on stationary industrial diesel engines like my Carrier unit that sits on top of my trailer.

Facet rates it on their website between 33 / 55 GPH depending on which model which is not much.
They all have 1/8 NPT pipe connections which could be a restriction.

Facet Dura Lift 40285, 33 GPH Free Flow, 4-7 psi @ no flow.
Facet Dura Lift 40222, 33 GPH Free Flow, 9-11 psi @ no flow.
Facet Dura Lift 40290, 50 GPH Free Flow, 12-15 psi @ no flow, 20 GPH @ 8 psi

Positive thing, they are rated for modern fuels including E85, but I wouldn’t fill my quad Webers with it other than cruise it on idle down the street..
 
Hi JP

Hope sure doing well !

I have Facet red on my car
Would you recommend the Facet Duralift or Holley Red flow ?

I found out that the little spring in my KING fuel filter on the valve is missing on one of my 2 filters.
Could this be the cause of a problematic fuel flow and do you know where I could find one ?

Beste regards
Fred
 

Randy V

Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Facet Duralift is an interesting choice. Is commonly used on stationary industrial diesel engines like my Carrier unit that sits on top of my trailer.

Facet rates it on their website between 33 / 55 GPH depending on which model which is not much.
They all have 1/8 NPT pipe connections which could be a restriction.

Facet Dura Lift 40285, 33 GPH Free Flow, 4-7 psi @ no flow.
Facet Dura Lift 40222, 33 GPH Free Flow, 9-11 psi @ no flow.
Facet Dura Lift 40290, 50 GPH Free Flow, 12-15 psi @ no flow, 20 GPH @ 8 psi

Positive thing, they are rated for modern fuels including E85, but I wouldn’t fill my quad Webers with it other than cruise it on idle down the street..
What is the HP level of your engine?
How many GPH do you think you need?
Is the engine used in sustained competition?
 
What is the HP level of your engine?
How many GPH do you think you need?
Is the engine used in sustained competition?
Does not comply, its a general fuel pump topic to compare models, types etc on GPH, durability and so on.

For your interrest, a Facet Red Top (40 GPH free flow) (thats about 25 GPH @ 4 psi) couldn't keep up with the demand on my tripple 40's 3.0 V6 gp2 Ford Capri.
With demand I mean a steady proper float height so my emulsiontubes have the right fuel level which relatetes to a perfect balance between main jet & air correction jets.

So if it can't cope with a multy carb 3.0 V6 it won't deffo handle a V8.
 

Randy V

Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Does not comply, its a general fuel pump topic to compare models, types etc on GPH, durability and so on.

For your interrest, a Facet Red Top (40 GPH free flow) (thats about 25 GPH @ 4 psi) couldn't keep up with the demand on my tripple 40's 3.0 V6 gp2 Ford Capri.
With demand I mean a steady proper float height so my emulsiontubes have the right fuel level which relatetes to a perfect balance between main jet & air correction jets.

So if it can't cope with a multy carb 3.0 V6 it won't deffo handle a V8.
Any residual pressure in the line ahead of the carbs indicates that there is sufficient flow and the float / needle valve are in the process of creating that back-pressure. My experience with most Webers is that they function perfectly with 3-3.5 PSI.
Again - what sort of flow in GPH do you think you need to feed the HP you have?
 
Does not comply, its a general fuel pump topic to compare models, types etc on GPH, durability and so on.

For your interrest, a Facet Red Top (40 GPH free flow) (thats about 25 GPH @ 4 psi) couldn't keep up with the demand on my tripple 40's 3.0 V6 gp2 Ford Capri.
With demand I mean a steady proper float height so my emulsiontubes have the right fuel level which relatetes to a perfect balance between main jet & air correction jets.

So if it can't cope with a multy carb 3.0 V6 it won't deffo handle a V8.
Hi JP,

I appreciate what you are saying, and the advice given from your experience, but it is confusing for me with little knowledge on the subject. I like others have mentioned do wonder if it is the context the car is being used in. I know of several quad weber GT40 using redtop facets, mainly used on the road with occasional laps of a track, or hill climb. One has done over 20,000 miles in a few years without any problems, which in my experience is quite high for a 40. Others on the other hand with what appears on the face of it to be the same set up seem to have had problems hence the confusion.

Thanks

Nick
 
Dual red top facets (one for each tank) on a SBF powered (347) Lotus Esprit. About 400hp, not tracked. Ran great.

Now switched over to efi with Fast 2.0 and Bosch 044.
 
Facet silver Top, 36 GPH free flow, 23 GPH @ 2 psi. 11.5 GPH @ 4 psi.
Facet Red Top 40 GPH free flow, 35 GPH @ 2 psi. 20 GPH @ 4 psi
Facet Blue Top, 45 GPH, 38 GPH @ 2 psi. 23 GPH @ 4 psi

Facet Dura Lift 40285, 33 GPH Free Flow, 4-7 psi @ no flow.
Facet Dura Lift 40222, 33 GPH Free Flow, 9-11 psi @ no flow, 17 GPH @ 4 psi
Facet Dura Lift 40290, 50 GPH Free Flow, 12-15 psi @ no flow, 20 GPH @ 8 psi
Holley Red flows 97 Us Gph free flow - 67 Us Gph @ 5psi
Carter P4600HP flows 100 Us Gph free flow.

Steward Warner 240A, ?

Webers run 4 psi fuel pressure.
Holleys run 7 psi fuel pressure.

The more pressure a pump has to deliver the less GPH is pumped by the pump. That’s why we are not interested in free flow numbers given by the manufacturers.

Modern fuel pump calculators calculate:

250 bhp you´ll need 24 GPH @ 4 - 7 psi, that’s about max a Facet Dura Lift (40290) can handle.
350 bhp you’ll need 33 GPH @ 4 - 7 psi, so that leaves a Facet Red & Blue Top out.
400 bhp you’ll need 37 GPH @ 4 – 7 psi.
4 psi for the weber carb, 7 psi for a Holley carb.

Facet Red & Blue top pumps have no flow at 7 psi while Holley recommends 7 psi at idle, and a minimum 4 psi at engine redline for their carbs.

You also don’t want to be on the edge of a pumps capacity cause as the pump wears it affects its GPH.
Especially the Facet Red & Blue wears out fast. Unless you don’t drive that often.

If you run multiple carbs, you’ll have to take into account multiple float chambers have to be filled at the same time. And as multiple carbs have multiple pump jets you’ll need some extra capacity to keep up demand.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Thanks for that JP
So I run a Rover mill turning 256hp Fuel injected.
I run a Facet red to fill a Swirl pot 8 mm into it and 6 mm return to tank, (I presume this is free flow) and a Bosch 044 from there, with the rail return into the swirl.

The Facet is mounted on the bottom chassis rail so around the level of the bottom of the tank.
Chassis is open at the bottom so lots of air flow and away from exhausts.

would this system be marginal or at WOT would I be using the reserve capacity of the swirl?

ian
 
Ian, your Facet is running free flow @ zero pressure (40GPH) to fill that swirl pot only so its not marginal. Your Bosch 044 returns back into that swirl pot to so you'r save.
That Bosch 044 specs at 80GPH @ 72,5 psi.
 
Make sure your wiring is adequate and an auto-reset circuit breaker is helpful.
Wise words! Those of you working with GTD looms may have found the twin pump supplies are unfused. I'm also suspicious the dash mounted pump selector switch may be losing some current.
 
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