Gettrag tranny opinions?

Noticed that most of the CAV's coming on the market complete are using the inexpensive Gettrag Audi transmission. My personal experience with Audi's wasn't too good but then again that car had a ZF tranny hehehehe.

Was wondering what people think of "that" transmission...I'm counting on you guys knowing which one I'm talking about since the websites I've found don't have a specific model number.

 

[Steve Toner]

I have been told by the guys at CAV that my car is the first in the U.S. with a ZF. So unless somebody else has gotten one and completed it, all CAV's built so far have the Getrag. I opted for the ZF for a couple of reasons: (1) originality, (2) the engine sits 2 inches lower with the ZF than with the Getrag, and (3) I didn't like the gear ratios on the Getrag.

The Getrag is referred to as "Audi Getrag 3V" in the CAV brochure. They say it's been found to be reliable up to 400 HP - I guess the guys in South Africa have put enough miles on 'em to be able to make that claim.

 

[Steve Toner]

Just to finish the CAV-ZF story as I understand it:

Finish Line Motorsports in las Vegas was supposed to get the first ZF car so they could get experience with the build and work out any kinks with the factory. Unfortunately, their car was damaged in shipment so they had to order a new one (& I understand that they're now going for the full race version) so mine became the first. I got it in August, but the transaxle was delayed so I never got that. As winter was fast approaching, I took the car back down to Las Vegas (in November, I think) to have Finish Line complete the build. It has turned out to be a bit more involved than a simple bolt in & go (e.g., Lloyd Butfoy at RBT told them that the hydraulic clutch release was unreliable, so they are designing a clutch fork for it), so it's a good thing I did. They are trying to get it operational for the SAAC Does Vegas event on the weekend of Jan 31-Feb 2. I won't be taking it on the track - I want to get some seat time first, but if you want to see a ZF CAV then head to Las Vegas that weekend...

 

Having gone through that with the ZF, is it something that they'll sell for CAVs similarly equipped in the future and, if you don't mind me asking, how much is it costing to "finish" the car and what engine are you putting in?

TIA

 

[Steve Toner]

I believe that whatever solution Finish Line comes up with for the clutch will become the standard for all ZF-equipped CAV cars.

And I don't really know what it's costing to finish the build. As I understand it, they're charging the factory for design changes and such since the car is sold as turnkey-minus... I suppose I'll have a better idea of the cost at the end of the month

Shouldn't be too bad though...

The engine is a 289 with Weber IDFs. If you search through the archives for a topic titled "Waiting, waiting, waiting" you'll get the whole history of my little car-buying adventure and some pictures.

 

Thanks, read that and it was very informative.

Still trying to get a feel for the actual cost of this whole thing but I'll keep researching hehehe.

Finding out the engine sits two inches lower with the ZF is one of those REALLY IMPORTANT things to know and pushes the budget necessary (in my mind) up to make that a requirement.

On the gear ratios, it looked like the ratios on the Gettrag were pretty short...was that what you didn't like about them?

 

[Steve Toner]

These are the published ratios for the Getrag:
1st: 3.60
2nd: 2.12
3rd: 1.45
4th: 1.07
5th: .80
Final drive ratio: 3.88
Spacings are 1.7, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3

and the ZF:
1st: 2.23
2nd: 1.47
3rd: 1.04
4th: .846
5th: .705
Final drive: 4.22
Spacings are 1.5, 1.4, 1.2, 1.2

First gear is pretty worthless on the Getrag, so it's effectively a 4-speed with a granny gear...

 

[Neal]

The Audi box spec'd by CAV and RF is a 016 variety. The 3V version designates the gear ratios. The gearbox has been used in Audi 5000/100 FWD and Quatro models and a varient Porsche 924/944 cars. The Audi FWD box is the specific model used for conversions. There are 6 or 7 ratios available worldwide. As it is relatively new to the GT40 scene it's hard to gauge the durability. There are a handful of folks running around with them with fairly high HP motors. I'm putting a 400hp bullet behind one. Clearly the ZF is more hardy and far more costly. I would venture to say that for street driven car and occasional track use the 016 will do the trick. I have about $1000 invested in my trans including LSD, clutch and adapter. Try finding a ZF for that kind of money!

Try searching on Audi or 016 and you'll find more threads and specific ratios.

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

I found mine easier to shift with the sequential removed.

 

[Bill Hara]

Steve, the ratios that you put up are for the 016 3V box, however there are 6 ratios as Neal pointed out for this series of box. A more favourable comparison to your ZF is the 3U designation.
For a car revving to 6000rpm, riding on 335ZR17-35's here are the speeds through the gears for the ZF, 3V and 3U gearboxes:

ZF (4.22 diff)
1st (2.23) 49.8 mph
2nd (1.47) 75.5 mph
3rd (1.04) 106.7 mph
4th (.846) 131.2 mph
5th (.705) 157.4 mph

Getrag 016 3V (3.89 diff)
1st (3.60) 33.4 mph
2nd (2.13) 56.5 mph
3rd (1.46) 82.5 mph
4th (1.07) 112.5 mph
5th (0.83) 145.0 mph

Getrag 016 3U (3.89 diff)
1st (3.60) 33.4 mph
2nd (1.88) 64.0 mph
3rd (1.19) 101.2 mph
4th (0.84) 142.3 mph
5th (0.64) 170.8 mph

Regards
Bill

 

[Steve Toner]

Apparently the 3V gearing is what CAV supplies (by default) if you order the gearbox through them. I got the gear ratio info off of CAV's brochure. That said, I still have problems with the 3U first gear -- it's the same as the 3V and it seems like you'd never use it on a race track, and I'm not sure it'd be much use on the street in this light a car either...

I should point out that I did ride in a Getrag-equipped CAV before I ordered mine, and even though we were just tooling around the grounds outside the race track in Las Vegas at low speeds, it seemed apparent to me at that time that first gear was too low...

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Steve Toner ]

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Now if we can get the Getrag 3U with a different diff ratio!

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

Steve
Is your ZF sequential in that you have to go from 5 to 4 and can't go from 5 to 3 without engauging 4? The box in my Lola which is a GT 40 ZF that I got from Kar Kraft many years ago was sequential until Roy showed me how to modify it.

 

[Steve Toner]

I have no idea whether it's sequential or not, as I haven't had the opportunity to drive it, and nobody has mentioned anything either way. I believe I ended up with a new one (ordered a used one, but they seem to be hard to find), so it'll be however RBT builds them. It won't make much difference to me, as I always go through the gears anyway...

 

Neal,

Do you have any opinion as to the order of choice for the 016's, as to which is preferred over the other for the V-8 conversion?

I know the 5N is used with much confidence, but how is the FWD unit for usage? How are the others compared to each other, if such a comparison can be made?

BTW, love your web site.


Bill,
Do you have any speeds for the 016 that uses 2 over-drive ratios (4th and 5th)?


Have fun!

John

 

Hey guys, where do get the adapters to mate a small block Ford to the Getrag transaxle, I've tried CAV but haven't really got an answer from them.

 

[Neal]

I can't comment on road worthyness just yet as I'm not there. The 5N is the easiest to find in the US. I'm trying to source a 3Q as it would be a better application. The 3Q didn't come to the US as far as I know. Here are the ratios I know of.

1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Rev Diff Speedo
3Q 2.84 1.52 0.90 0.64 0.48 3.16 5.22 0.52
AAZ 3.60 2.13 1.46 1.07 0.86 3.50 3.89 0.52
3V 3.60 2.13 1.46 1.07 0.83 3.50 3.89 0.52
3K 3.60 2.13 1.36 0.97 0.78 3.50 3.89 0.52
5N 3.60 2.13 1.36 0.97 0.73 3.50 4.11 0.52
3U 3.60 1.88 1.19 0.84 0.64 3.50 3.89 0.52


Adapters / clutch are available from Kennedy Engineering is California. About $800 for the lot.

The Audi O1E 6 speed would be an alternative.

At one time Wayne Presley had calculated speeds for all the Audi boxes. He has a CAV on the road with some serious HP. Perhaps or Hershal he can comment on the box.

 

Bill,

Try Gordon Levy for the adapter. I could be mistaken but I thought I read a thread that stated he had made several of them. With his experience and know-how, he'd be a good one to ask.

Have fun!

John

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Not all the ZFs had the sequential mechanism; a friends GT40 MkV has a standard shift gate. Those cars have a -2 version of the ZF box, similar to what came in a BMW M1. Same box that I bought. The box is on its' way up here this week; I should have it next week if anyone has any questions.
Still haven't found an engine block, BTW.

 

[M.B]

Only the ZF 5 DS-25 had the sequ shift arrangment.
To avoid wrong gear change...
At least in the GT40ies(and the further developed ZF used in the last years..)and i suppose the Formula cars that also used the same gearbox.
From the 5 DS-25/1 in the Mangusta and onwards, it was gone..
Merely a racing "thing" !
It is only "hardware" in box.
So you can not skip a gear upwards or down...
Nothing visable !
GT40 MkV got the 5 DS-25/M1 box.
M1´s were of different in put shafts, ratios etc..etc..
Think it has been covered earlier..