Gulf Oil Rig Disaster

[Garry]

Its a truth that BP was guilty of something, but as my wife has said from the beginning, Transocean, the driller, is responsible for the rig and its safety. It is starting to come out about the safety lapses and poor maintainence of the rig and the BOP. In fact, BP real guilt was hiring these guys in the first place. The rig has not been in dry-dock for over 7 years and the maintainence crew was constantly repairing parts that were breaking down. The driller,Transocean, has the final say in all rig safety matters period. It seems that they knew the drill rig was in need of being taken offline and that over 3500 man-hours of repairs were needed before thay took the contract with BP. My bet is that they did not tell BP of this problem.
I believe as does my wife who has been in the oil exploration industry for over 16 years,that Transocean will prove to be the party that was negligent and entered into a contract with BP knowing their equipment and its safety features were not up to code. They wanted the fees anyway.
Garry

 

[Keith]

QUOTE: Actually their corner cutting was right on the edge of criminal. The only problem they fixed was of their own causing. When it your butt on the line you will tend to become very creative.The contingency plan for this should have been in place long before it was ever needed. Sorry the kudos will have to go to the guys that are building 40s and the like not a group that was deficient in their planning.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Then you must also indict 99% of large corporations and 90% of Western Govts.

Oh, the crystal clear benefits of hindsight from an Ivory Tower.

Don't just single out BP.

PROFIT is the name..
Not getting caught is the game...

It's called - Capitalism...and you voted for it mate..

 

[Pat Buckley]

Keith, you make it sound like Capitalism is a disgusting thing......?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I think all big companies operate as close to the edge as regulations allow. When I came to Tucson in 1971 as an electric lineman, I went to work for Tucson Electric Power. We rubber gloved 14000 volts from the poles, the only place in the country that worked that high a voltage from a pole at that time. They had the Corporation Commission of Az in their pocket and their work practices were very wild west compared to Connecticut Light and Power where I did my apprenticeship. They didn't even practice or teach pole top resuscitation or CPR. From 1971 to 1986 there were 78 eletric accidents with 5 fatalities. They acted as if a lineman was a part that could be obtained from the warehouse. There was no oversite.

Transocean was responsible for maintainance, but BP should have performed the oversite.

 

[Jim Craik]

I have to agree with you Al,

Thats really scarry, what did the line workers feel about this type of practace?

 

[Keith]

Keith, you make it sound like Capitalism is a disgusting thing......?

Not really Pat. Capitalism is somewhat preferable to many other "systems" but when you apply globalism, greed and corporations richer than many countries with a Mission Satement of Profit over People then, I believe that that is the unacceptable face of modern Capitalism.

People dying needlessly for profit, does not sit well in my book.

The Good News is.. everyone will have their pound of flesh sooner than later with Mr Hayward quitting the board of BP. The American gentleman currently in charge of the clean-up is stated to takeover as Chief Exec.

 

[Keith]

I think all big companies operate as close to the edge as regulations allow. When I came to Tucson in 1971 as an electric lineman, I went to work for Tucson Electric Power. We rubber gloved 14000 volts from the poles, the only place in the country that worked that high a voltage from a pole at that time. They had the Corporation Commission of Az in their pocket and their work practices were very wild west compared to Connecticut Light and Power where I did my apprenticeship. They didn't even practice or teach pole top resuscitation or CPR. From 1971 to 1986 there were 78 eletric accidents with 5 fatalities. They acted as if a lineman was a part that could be obtained from the warehouse. There was no oversite.

Transocean was responsible for maintainance, but BP should have performed the oversite.

Al, you were A Lineman for the County?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I have to agree with you Al,

Thats really scarry, what did the line workers feel about this type of practace?

I harassed the safety supervisor (a title, he did nothing) for three years before we finally got CPR and pole top. The guys that worked there weren't happy about the practice, but didn't know there was something else. The second week I was there, an appentice with 3 kids died on his 21st birthday. It was crazy.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, you were A Lineman for the County?

Yes, I was surprised that we didn't wear guns! We worked 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, plus storm trouble. Put in some serious hours.

 

[Pat Buckley]

Not really Pat. Capitalism is somewhat preferable to many other "systems" but when you apply globalism, greed and corporations richer than many countries with a Mission Satement of Profit over People then, I believe that that is the unacceptable face of modern Capitalism.

People dying needlessly for profit, does not sit well in my book.

The Good News is.. everyone will have their pound of flesh sooner than later with Mr Hayward quitting the board of BP. The American gentleman currently in charge of the clean-up is stated to takeover as Chief Exec.

I agree with you.

There must be a way to get some balance going.........not just with corporations but with almost everything else.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

If I have a choice, and I do, I prefer capitalism to socialism, communism, ect. We still have the ability to be as much as the effort we make.

 

[domtoni]

+1 to all !!! Great contribution by all to the discussion.

While corporations might have all of those negative things Keith discussed above, Western European governments operate in a similar mode. Just the nature of the large bureaucratic beast.

 

[Keith]

Holy Crapola Batman.... does that mean we actually agree with each other?

 

[Cliff Beer]

Its a truth that BP was guilty of something, but as my wife has said from the beginning, Transocean, the driller, is responsible for the rig and its safety. It is starting to come out about the safety lapses and poor maintainence of the rig and the BOP. In fact, BP real guilt was hiring these guys in the first place. The rig has not been in dry-dock for over 7 years and the maintainence crew was constantly repairing parts that were breaking down. The driller,Transocean, has the final say in all rig safety matters period. It seems that they knew the drill rig was in need of being taken offline and that over 3500 man-hours of repairs were needed before thay took the contract with BP. My bet is that they did not tell BP of this problem.
I believe as does my wife who has been in the oil exploration industry for over 16 years,that Transocean will prove to be the party that was negligent and entered into a contract with BP knowing their equipment and its safety features were not up to code. They wanted the fees anyway.
Garry

Garry, it was BP who put this rig in that location - their dollars/pounds paid for it to be there and operate in the location and manner in which is did. It's called the power of the party writing the check - they have the ability to set the terms and condition for operation, including adherence to safety protocol, simply by virtue of being the party with the power of paying for it. It's similar to vicarious liability upon the employer for employee's act - if the employee commits a tort of some kind in the course of doing their job then the employer is liable because the employer is presumed to be setting the expectations and the task list of the employee. Said another way, the employer is writing the check and thus the presumption is that they have the power to control and dictate behavior.

Of course, the law has precedence for this sort of thing in the form of indemnification and contributory fault. It's too early to know what direction it's going to go however. Frankly, the best outcome is for it to be squarely on the shoulders of BP rather than transocean because BP will have far greater resources to rectify the situation ($$) than transocean.

 

[Keith]

Of course it will be BP carrying the can - who else could it be? Although sub contractors agree to indemnify their "employers" against liability of any kind, in a law suit (as I'm sure you know very well Cliff) it is the "Employer" or "Occupier" that is ultimately liable, and subsequent lawsuits will presumably state "Jointly and Severally" (English Law) to catch all subbies in the net.

The "subbies" will carry billions in liability insurance cover, but the insurance companies will go hell for leather to prove negligence and avoid payouts, and if BP are NOT proved to be the actual "occupier/operator?" (of the rig that is) then, "there will be trouble ahead" to paraphrase the words of a famous song.

In which case, of course BP will seek redress from THEIR contractors, or not, as the case may be and then, the subcontractors will merely roll over and die, then disappear without trace. Yada yada yada.

For the public good, and future shareholder confidence, BP may well throw up their hands to make it go away, but that depends on the ultimate cost I think.

Whatever, it's a mess.

 

[Garry]

Cliff and Kieth,
I agree with the both of you. Ultimately, BP is going to get stuck with the payout. However, I do believe that BP's insurers will try to implicate the subcontractors for some of the fault. I also agree that Transocean will disappear if there is too much financial pressure put on them. Either way, the cost of insurance for both firms will rise exponentially.
Garry

 

[domtoni]

I guess you all heard about BP's $11 Billion loss in the last quarter.

 

[Keith]

I guess you all heard about BP's $11 Billion loss in the last quarter.

Set against their tax liability I guess it won't mean much. BP consistently make truly obscene profits which is why they are (were) the pension fund investment of choice.

By the way Greenpeace, thanks for your protests which shut down most (if not all) BP garages in London today. It means absolutely nothing and indicates you are really happy to jump on someone elses bandwagon, and if you are TRULY protesting about BP's lack of 'green intiatives and practises' why not shut ALL gas stations down?

I think you lost your way somewhere guys.... :veryangry:

 

[domtoni]

I'll bet BP did a good job to expand on their loss, and as a business person, I don't blame them.

You are right Keith, why not shut down all gas (or is it petrol) stations?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Set against their tax liability I guess it won't mean much. BP consistently make truly obscene profits which is why they are (were) the pension fund investment of choice.

By the way Greenpeace, thanks for your protests which shut down most (if not all) BP garages in London today. It means absolutely nothing and indicates you are really happy to jump on someone elses bandwagon, and if you are TRULY protesting about BP's lack of 'green intiatives and practises' why not shut ALL gas stations down?

I think you lost your way somewhere guys.... :veryangry:

Believe it or not many years ago I was a member of Greenpeace. Save the whales etc. Unfortunately they have well and truly lost the plot and are now a bunch of radical wankers.