Health care "reform" passes

Damian,

If it will make you feel any better, the "release of liability" is worth no more than the paper it is printed on. Funny, the lawyers write these things up to "protect" us, then they come back and tell us they are worthless. And, of course they charge us both times :)

I sit and review the credentialls of physicians applying to work in my hospital. Case after case after case of patients suffering side-effects or poor outcomes that they were warned about in the "release of liability" forms result in settlements of tens of thousands of dollars. Whatever it is, if it involves a child, figure one hundreds of thousands of dollars...no malpractice, just a bad outcome and the possibility of a sympathetic jury.

I could tell you nightmare stories. I recall one doc, who was only peripherally involved with child that suffered blindness during a procedure. No malpractice, and he wasn't really even involved. However, he was named in the suit because he read an x-ray. The surgeon and all the other docs directly involved settled for several hundred K each, leaving him out to dry. If a case like this goes to court, and you lose, and are found even 1% culpable, you get to pay the entire difference between what was already settled by the other docs, and what the jury awards. In this case, the family was asking for 6-7 million dollars. Had he gone to court and lost, and been found 1% responsible, he would have been on the hook for 6-7 million dollars minus about $500K that had already been paid. Most malpractice coverage in the US tops out at 1 million dollars. He and his family would have lost everything. Needless to say, his lawyer and insurer told him to accept the settlement offer of $850K.

Really, he had almost nothing to do with the case. I see it all the time. Not usually for so much money, but for between $10K to $100K all the time. A jury is rarely sympathetic to the "Wealthy Doctor" and his insurance company, no matter what really happened.

Just remember that the trial lawyers OWN the Democrats, and perpetuate this rediculous process for their own benefit.

Ron, one thing I think we can agree on is that liability is out of control, and operating in a somewhat irrational manner, just as you describe above. You know how the drill goes, plaintiff attorney X paints a horrific picture of a sympathetic plaintiff, suggesting that the doc/hospital defendant should have done a better job, while at the same time implying that the defendant's insurance can "afford" to absorb the loss regardless of whether, in fact, there was a breach of the standard of care. Jury falls for it and kaboom, multi-million dollar award.

However, I'm curious how apportionment of fault is operating to leave later defedants on the hook beyond their apportioned fault....?? In the cases I've seen (very few) the % apportionment has stuck right to the end. In other words, you pay (settle) for your apportioned fault, regardless of whether you're named up front, or come in later on in the lawsuit. Perhaps it depends on what State you're in. In WA State apportionment of fault seems to be working pretty well, at least as far as that aspect goes.
 
I believe that apportionment of fault is a state by state issue. As are a number of other malpractice-related issues. Florida, for a time, didn't even require malpractice insurance because it was so hard to get.

I deal with physicians who have licenses in almost every state, and the rules are not uniform.

What does seem to be uniform, is the need for tort reform. Agreed.

Gotta go, have a meeting in 3 minutes.
 
Ron I agree with most of what you have said. The reason that I brought up the release of liability doc's is because I actually have a friend that is in the hospital as we speak that is about to have surgery to remove cancer from his throat (need to remove his voice box) and the first thing they made him sign was this doc WTF. How about getting someone competent in there to do the job!!! My friend is supposed to go under the knife WED. but they wouldn't even schedule it until the form was signed. I am sure that there is more to the story that I am not aware of but come on that is just ridiculous. The part that I didn't say was that they gave him 6 months to live if he didn't have the surgery and only a 60% success ratio so what do you think he did once he heard that. Sorry but that is just slimy. I honestly feel that tort reform is needed but stories like this lessen my sympathy for people in the medical field.
 

Dave Wood

Lifetime Supporter
I believe that many of the "catch" phrases used, in this and other legislation, border on class warfare. Odd since everyone wants to be rich( well not everyone, I don't) or achieve some level of financial success. It always appears to me when discussions/debates get into that area, rationale and constitutionality are relegated to the unimportant when they should be the most. If those in other countries don't quite understand our constitution the Bill of Rights, as defined within that document are INALIENABLE. That means that they cannot be taken away from you...regardless if everyone but yourself wishes to allow them taken. Unless the document has no more meaning, I will still live under it.
Compelling anyone to HAVE to purchase health insurance( nor anything)..or be fined??, violates the very premise of freedom. If there was an assurance, and not some "lock box" that everyone has a key to, that the fine would pay for the insuance of the resister...they could have a better argument, but it still wouldn't fly with me.
Ironicly, the collective body of people that throw the class warfare terms around most are some of the wealthiest and have FREE health insurance that we buy. They have seen the enemy and they are them.
 
There are a lot of fairly narrow perspectives presented in this thread. Look at the big picture: Our congress has just passed a bill that the majority of the American people are against, thanks largely to Chicago-style arm twisting by the Obama administration. The financial analysis that was used to support its passage is deeply flawed, as it counts 10 years of revenue against six years of costs, and ignores how people and markets will likely respond. It also relies upon a future congress to make a huge cut to medicare, and we all know how much congress likes to cut entitlements. This bill actively dismantles free market mechanisms that pertain to one sixth of our economy and mandates an unprecedented expansion of the role of government in our society, our economy, and in our personal lives.

This once-great country has committed a grave error in electing these fools.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Tort reform...hmm...It would seem that consistency in an arguement for an free and open market would promote "penalties" against incompetence. Eventually those that are incompetent are removed or fail to survive. Seems many folks want regulation only if...


"One of the principal myths surrounding medical malpractice is its effect on overall health care costs. Medical malpractice is actually a tiny percentage of health care costs, in part because medical malpractice claims are far less frequent than many people believe.
In 2004, the CBO calculated malpractice costs amounted to “less than 2 percent of overall health care spending. Thus, even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small.”<SUP> i </SUP>

The American Association for Justice
 
There are a lot of fairly narrow perspectives presented in this thread. Look at the big picture: Our congress has just passed a bill that the majority of the American people are against, thanks largely to Chicago-style arm twisting by the Obama administration. The financial analysis that was used to support its passage is deeply flawed, as it counts 10 years of revenue against six years of costs, and ignores how people and markets will likely respond. It also relies upon a future congress to make a huge cut to medicare, and we all know how much congress likes to cut entitlements. This bill actively dismantles free market mechanisms that pertain to one sixth of our economy and mandates an unprecedented expansion of the role of government in our society, our economy, and in our personal lives.

This once-great country has committed a grave error in electing these fools.

Most don't get how flawed this plan is, you are exactly right! This administration just passed a bill that wasn't read prior to the vote, that 57% of the citizens are against, and that BO signed 36 hours after it passed, when he said repeatedly "any bill that is passed will be on the internet and not signed for 5 days (120 hours). But he lied about transparency and numerous other promises, why start now?
 
Caterpillar, the biggest heavy equipment builder in the world says that this bill is going to cost them an additional $100 million a year. When they leave the US, think of the jobs and taxes that will be lost, and a lot of big companies will follow.
Has anyone stopped to think why insurance companies don't cover pre-existing health problems? they would go broke. This health-care is going to be operating in the red so quick it will make your head spin. We don't need the government controlling another 14% to 16% of the economy.

They (CAT) have left the country...joint ventures with China and India. One week after OBAMA visited Peoria last year, CAT laid off 22,000 added to the 2,500 earlier. 2008 sales dropped to $32 Billion from 2007 $51 Billion. Most of the drop was from increased foreign competion and the world econmic turn down. This year sales is projected to rise to ~$45 Billion. Not so much will come from the US market. The labor and material cost drive the jobs overseas, ....however there is change. CAT announced (WSJ) two weeks ago they are bringing back production from CHINA because of cost increases (transportation). A new addition to the Genset business will go to South Carolina.

Which brings me to this question. I didn't like the way this Law came about, but when in Gods name is the Congress going to address the very real problem of employment when we are at 9.8% not employed (20% underemployment)?

I don't care if a doctor makes 150k, 250k, or 500k .... how much is your sons life worth to you? From what I've learned from my son and sister-in-law (doctors) the hospitals are cleaning up on the profit side. The largest job provider in my county is the hospital. Unless we have declared the end to Capitalism, 2-9% profit for an insurance company is not unfair. It is the cost we need to focus on. Why do the same drugs cost less in Canada or Mexico? Why not have tort reform on lawsuits? Why not have anti-trust laws on pharmaceutical and insurance companies? Why do we not let insurance companies compete across state lines? Why didn't the Congress, Senate, and presidents family get the same plan?

I think I would make a fine benevolent dictator, if just for a day!
...and probably why I don't sleep well at night.
 
Grady, some comments follow:

"The largest job provider in my county is the hospital. Unless we have declared the end to Capitalism, 2-9% profit for an insurance company is not unfair. It is the cost we need to focus on.
Why do the same drugs cost less in Canada or Mexico?
- In state sponsored health care, you pay the same for a prescription as you do for a generic drug.

Why not have tort reform on lawsuits?
- Because the trial lawyers support BHO and the Democrats.

Why not have anti-trust laws on pharmaceutical and insurance companies?
- Surprise the insurance companies, no matter how vilified they were, get the new business. I watched a BBC world news service spot on the US health care debate, and they interviewed a guy in LA who has diabetes. He was in a free health clinic and almost stated to cry when asked how he is going to pay for health insurance.

Why do we not let insurance companies compete across state lines?
- Good question, it was probably the deal that the Government has with the companies.

Why didn't the Congress, Senate, and presidents family get the same plan?
- They are not giving up what they have, and how can we the people make laws that protect our interests, ie the financial interests of the country?

I think I would make a fine benevolent dictator, if just for a day!
...and probably why I don't sleep well at night.
- You asked the right questions, and you will do OK, just how do you get the chance?
 
As for me, I really really like doctors!:thumbsup: And I believe they should be paid well. But let's be honest, a lot of doctors are making money by owning testing facilities and equipment that they lease out to hospitals and clinics...that is if they don't already own a hospital or clinic. Hey, I am all for free-market conditions to make money, but let's not kid ourselves, these doctor-owned corporations have found the money tree from billing insurance companies for tests...and they own the testing centers!This makes since in our capitalist system and I for one am not against this behavior. The issue of too many tests has led us down the rabbit hole of the escalating costs of medicine today. Maybe we do need these tests and maybe some of them are really not needed but are ordered to help the doctor avoid liability should some wack-head sue them. I just don't know and maybe some of you would care to shed some light on the situation. But don't try to persuade us that this is all about a doctor making $150K a year and he has to pay off his medical loans.Save that BS for others. I personally have a great many friends who are physicians and the ones in private practice who manage their money well will retire in the top 1% financially. You doc's know that. You also fail to mention that being a doctor is job security personified. Baring a really big gaff, you should enjoy making millions in your professional lifetime with out the risk of unemployment...not to mention great healthcare.:shy:

So here is what I say, the government has been in the healthcare industry for over 60 years..VA, Medicare,Medicade, Medical standards rules, nursing home rules, etc. What you object to is the loss of the free-market system of making money that you bought into when you started your medical training. I am with you. Its not fair that the government should change the rules in the middle of the game. Welcome to the 21st century and the havenots voting themseklves a piece of the pie. It is a travesty to hard working people everywhere and we need to stop it over the next election cycle. But let's not pretend that this is about anything other than money...your money.
Garry
 
Just so you know, doctors are not allowed to refer to testing centers that they own. In all but the smallest towns, and even in many of those, lab testing has been consolidated by the big national labs (Quest/Unilab, etc). FedEx goes everywhere.

As for the equipment, when you take your car in, who do you think owns that equipment?

And finally, exactly how many labs do you think there are? One for every doc? Of course some doctors have set up clinics, some may even own a hospital. Good for them. But exactly how many of these do you think there are? You certainly travel in better circles than I do.

Agreed, the system is a disaster. The government can take over any industry it wants, we're socialists now. The tax-paying minority is now considered the sugar-daddy to the great majority of non-tax paying unwashed masses. Who wouldn't vote for that, but how long can it last?

As I said before, punish an action, and you will get less of it.
 
Tort reform...hmm...It would seem that consistency in an arguement for an free and open market would promote "penalties" against incompetence. Eventually those that are incompetent are removed or fail to survive. Seems many folks want regulation only if...


"One of the principal myths surrounding medical malpractice is its effect on overall health care costs. Medical malpractice is actually a tiny percentage of health care costs, in part because medical malpractice claims are far less frequent than many people believe.
In 2004, the CBO calculated malpractice costs amounted to “less than 2 percent of overall health care spending. Thus, even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small.”<sup> i </sup>

The American Association for Justice

I don't believe anything the CBO says. Even NPR said that the CBO is a game that everyone in congress knows how to play... Hey, the CBO says we are going to save a trillion dollars in 10 years with the new health care bill. They cant be wrong! :thumbsdown:
 
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