Help! on strengthening Audi tranny

[Mike Dozier]

Ron

They're talking about a 6-speed.
The 016 of course is a 5-speed.
I can see differences in construction
right away... the bell housing area for one.

MikeDD

 

[Ron Earp]

There are slight differences, yes, but the design in basically the same. The reason I pointed it out is that I've had people emailing me on many occasions about transaxles:

Does Audi 5000 = Getrag = Porsche 944 = etc.

Yes, some use torque tubes with no provisions for clutch, others have different ribbing in the castings but these cores are basically the same with slight differences. Does it mean you can use any of them in a 40, of course not. But, these designs are all very close and probably share similar strengths and weaknesses.

R

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: R. Earp ]

 

[Ian K]

OK, did some more research and have to correct
myself ... only the 3rd gen Pantera used
a Getrag 6 spd with a 302, and then only
the later models.

GTD and UK guys, anyone know if this is the
same 6 spd used by, I think Roy Smart?
Please correct me if I have the owner misidentified.
If it's not the same box, can anyone shed any
light on which 6 spd Getrag was used?
I really want to find a unit (ZF or Getrag)
that uses a 302/trans bellhousing (sorry
Renault fans, but Renaults are nigh impossible
to source over thisaway) instead of the adpator
plates so I can use a standard FoMoCo clutch
and starter design.

Thanks,

Ian

 

[Ian K]

I'm just curious to see what box was
used for the Panteras. If that Getrag box
is similar to one of the Audi 6 spd boxes,
then:

- It's proven to handle over 300HP (the
Pantera had 305HP in stock trim).
- There should someone with tooling for a
302/Getrag bellhousing.
- If said bellhousing exists, then I can use
a stadard Ford 10" clutch (or an suitable
after market one).

Just looking for options and solidity.

Ian

 

[Mike Dozier]

Ron

I've seen no comparison between the 5-speed
and 6-speed Audi trans. You may be right.
Maybe they are comparable in strength.
Maybe not. There can be quite a bit of difference within the same "family".

Does anyone have actual torque ratings?
What is the 6-speed designation?
Is it out of a apassenger car or just
an over the counter item?

I'd love to have a 6-speed in my car...
but not for $10,000 to $ 15,000.

MikeDD

 

[Ian K]

Well, I just got a response back from PI
Motorsports. Apparently, the Getrag was used
only 1 3rd gen Pantera as far as they know.

Oh well, it was worth a shot. However, maybe
I can still find the bellhousing. Or, find
someone to make one to fit a Getrag.

Thanks to Bud for giving us the info on
GTD Racing's Getrag. That's another avenue!

Ian

 

[Ron Earp]

The ZF box was used in Panteras. My buddy Ed just had one here at the house this morning, a 71 model with the 351C. I do not know the entire history of Panteras, but I'm pretty certain all the early cars until 74 used ZFs.

Ron

 

[Ron Earp]

Ian,

I'm not sure what you are after. There are adapters for the Getrag/Audi box to 302/351 series Ford motors. You can use clutches other than the Audi clutch. RF uses something that is pretty beefy. There are about 3 or 4 different GT40s on the market setup to take this transaxle - the RF, GTDs can, American GT will, and the CAV car. So, getting the adapter should not be too difficult.

Even if the bolt patterns are not the same it'd still be a damn good place to start work as not much in the way of mods would be required. Maybe some pictures of the Audi 5 speed will help, I'll try to get some up.

Here are some photos of the 3U box I brought in from Germany, quite dirty. My 5N is almost pristine, this one will take some work.

Sorry about the terrible pictures but my wife has the good digital camera, I have the mini 1"x1"x3" pocket model with no flash.

Ron

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: R. Earp ]

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: R. Earp ]

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: R. Earp ]

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: R. Earp ]

 

[Ian K]

Ron,

I had stumbled on a Pantera site, and this
is the tale:

All of the 1st and 2nd gen Panteras used a
351C mated to a ZF. That's the 1970-1976 (I
think '76 was the last year for 1st gen),
and the mid '80s run (2nd gen).

There was a brief run of 3rd gen Panteras
in the early '90s. It was a 302W mated to
a ZF (just like the old Mangustas), and
apparently, the last car(s) has a 6 spd
Getrag. I don't know if this was a cutomer
request, or a cost/supply issue. Regardless,
few if any actually wound up with the Getrag,
and there were only 40 or so made, with the
first 38 definitley having a ZF.

I'm hoping that I can find or have made a
one piece bellhousing for a few reasons. The
adaptor plates are pretty heavy, and a
correct bellhousing will allow the use of
standard aftermarket Ford clutches (such
as those made by Zoom, Ram, and Centerforce)
as well as a standard Ford design starter.
Again, this might all be a pipe dream, and
depending on what RF does to beef up the Audi
or what GTD has done, I might not care.

Ian

 

Ron,
Ive been trying to find some more info on the 3U transaxle.Can I ask what Audi Vehicles/years this transaxle come out of? What are the advantages of using the 3U transaxle and can an adapter plate from Kennedy more commonly used on the 5N 016 transaxle be used with this 3U unit?

Any info at all you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
Ian.

 

[Ron Earp]

The 3u is just another ratio variation of the 016. I bought a few of these into the country from Germany. The 3U only saw service in Audi 5000s cars from 84-87 and only in the diesel models, that is what the 3U was used for. The 3U appeared in no US/Canadian models, was abundant in Germany and might be in the UK.

Pat Berry has one of mine and I gave one to Hershal for helping me work on the car but I don't know if he used it or not. It is EXACTLY the same as the 5N, just a different set of gears.
Ron

 

Ron,

With the Audi boxes is the 016 3U or 5N clearly marked on the casing. If so could you tell me where.

Regards, Alex.

 

[Ron Earp]

Yep, it is located on the top of the box, right near where the tranny would mate with the engine.

Ron

 

Ron,

Thanks, probably more questions to come, steep learning curve at the moment.

Cheers, Alex /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Ron or Anybody,

Went to one of the local scrapologists today and expressed my desire for an Audi 100 box.

He showed me one still attached to its engine. The only numbers we could find were on the engine (upper front left hand cylinder wall) 16 026103373F and on the gearbox / transmission on the top about 6 - 8 inches back from where it joins onto the engine HE 03124.

He showed me another box which he said was from an Audi 80 2litre and had the number in the same location as the first but read 3M 09054.

He offered both boxes together for £45. Are they any good?

Regards, Alex

 

[Neal]

You guys are killing me. Hopefully the following info will help.

Audi Gearboxes and Ratios...

The gearbox type ID is located on the main cluster (painted section) near the rear of trans on the right side when viewing it fron the rear.

The gear ratio designation is located on the top of the trans on the bellhousing. This is a photo of the rear of my engine block looking down. The number is located above the black line in the photo.

Hope this helps...

 

Sorry mate, death by idiot is always painful.

Thanks for the valuable help.

Regards, Alex

 

[Paul]

Hi Guys

I have had my box modified by an engineering firm that used to operate out of Petermaritzburg South Africa. It involved machining out the rear bearing housing casting and inserting one made of mild steel with more meat. Vic Wait had his done the same and it appears to work. I cannot comment on mine as it has not run yet. I think that the guy who did it has gone out of buisness so I dont have any machining details. I am at work in Angola at the moment but when I get home later this week I will get hold of Vic and see if he has an more info.

 

[Paul]

Hi Guy's

I have just got hold of the chap that did Vic Wait's and my Audi box.
What he did was to machine out the cast iron housing and put in a sleve with a shoulder on the crown wheel and pinion side. He tells me that it is quite a task to do this.
If you need more information let me know and I will ask him to sketch his mod and I will post it here.
Regards Paul reynolds.