HTP ~ Historic Technical Passport

[JimmyMac]

An interesting view on HTP

http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/news/documents/historical_passport.pdf

Also FIA regulations with rules on Fomoco 289 engines.

http://www.gtc-tc.com/fileadmin/_gtc-tc/docs/AppendixK.pdf

Discussion and input welcome.

 

[Richard]

Jimmy very interesting reading. I've never had to deal with anything car related at this level but these people seem to really be in love with themselves. In this case I think the golden rule applies, you know he who has the gold.

That aside is there a place on the web to look at the GT-40 homologation papers or were there any?

 

[Mike Drew]

That aside is there a place on the web to look at the GT-40 homologation papers or were there any?

Yes, and yes.

Those nice people at Mirage Automotive have posted the FIA homologation paperwork here:

Mirage Automotive - GT40 FIA/RAC Homologation papers

Clicking each image opens it up in a small-ish size; clicking that image then enlarges it. :thumbsup:

Although curiously, almost all of the actual data is missing from the paperwork? :huh:

 

[Cliff Beer]

An interesting view on HTP

http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/news/documents/historical_passport.pdf

Discussion and input welcome.

Definitely interesting reading. Seems to me that the key point is that the new threshhold of technical provenance is a necessary-but-not-sufficient standard, thus, particular event organizers can disqualify a replica/non-original car at their discretion, even where a HTP has been issued for example.

I haven't vintage raced in Europe. However, there's a very active vintage racing group in my area (Northwestern United States) and it's clear that if the car wasn't built prior to 1970 then it makes no difference what papers are with the car, it's not going on the track. Replicas are strictly forbidden, no matter how accurate or "papered"

 

[JimmyMac]

For the life of me I have never seen those Homologation Papers on that Mirage site.
I don't think it's the work of Mirage themselves but by the hand of a customer.

The subject of FIA regulations came up on another thread last week and I want to know the basics concerning applications for HTP.
There are some who believe it is possible to meet the requirements of HTP with a new chassis fitted out with exact original parts however others question the fedility of the chassis.
There are also some who vouch their idea on the required accuracy, fabrication technique and veracity of materials specification but this may be creative selling as even two original chassis' appear not to be exactly identical.
I suppose that I will need consult with an invigilator for advice.

PS: Incidentally those somewhat scant homologation documents did turn up one gem, regarding a revision and the acceptance of a Hewland LG 600.
I believe a few chaps questioned this a while back.

 

[Jac Mac]

On the LG600 paper there is reference also to a a Ford LSD unit, whether that is part of or supplementary to the Hewland or another transaxle altogether is not clear. The 302 crank assy was homologated at the same time.
The HTP article does suggest that its only for original factory spec type cars, so if for example a younger Jimmy Mac or Jac Mac had both owned GT40's back in 1969 & been determined to better one another at race events and further modified their respective cars in order to do so, that in later years a clone of that particular period modification will not be considered for an HTP.

 

[JohnMcL]

On this topic it is useful to see the experience of Claude Nahum. He has had a copy of his original GT 40 Mk1 P1075 made so that he can race that instead of his fragile original that was never made to last so long. His new car has been made in the UK by Gelscoe to the original drawings but better materials, castings, welds, etc. so can qualify for an HTP. Steel rolling mills, welding and casting technologies have all moved on since the 60s so although all gauges, dimensions, materials may be the same, a modern recreation will certainly be more robust. The car is described as a replica. I see from the V de V race results at Paul Ricard this year that the car is listed as a "Ford GT 40" but the chassis number is GEL W001.


Both cars may have an HTP but only the original may have a Heritage Certificate, but see the shenanigans in the Ferrari and Cobra worlds with duplicate cars claiming single identities.

John McL

 

[David Sturch]

Gent's
Look's to me they are thinning the herd. From Jimmy's article, cars that once qualified under the old rules may have to be brought up to snuff under the new rules. Like Richard said it will be who has the money or who's driving the car. Look's like vintage racing is turning into F1.
Dave

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Who is Claude Nahum? I thought P1075 belongs to the Walton family, Rob Walton, Incline Village, NV? It was his car when it was at Laguna Seca in 2003. Did 1075 change hands?

 

[JimmyMac]

On this topic it is useful to see the experience of Claude Nahum. He has had a copy of his original GT 40 Mk1 P1075 made so that he can race that instead of his fragile original that was never made to last so long

I see from the V de V race results at Paul Ricard this year that the car is listed as a "Ford GT 40" but the chassis number is GEL W001.John McL

John, you are wrong.

Claude owns two fine originals however P1075 is not one of them, but he has allegedly as you say replicated it.

http://www.gt40enthusiastsclub.com/images/No 82 part take3.pdf

 

[JohnMcL]

James,
I sit corrected. The man has so many originals, when I read what he had done I thought 1075 must be one of them.
John McL.

 

[Steve26]

["I haven't vintage raced in Europe. However, there's a very active vintage racing group in my area (Northwestern United States) and it's clear that if the car wasn't built prior to 1970 then it makes no difference what papers are with the car, it's not going on the track. Replicas are strictly forbidden, no matter how accurate or "papered"]

Unfortunately Cliff this is not correct! At least one glaring example here in the Northwest is D. Kirk's Safir MKV that is listed year after year as a "1966 Ford GT40 MK1". There are several books listing Kirk's car as having been purchased as a roller/unpainted and shipped to the USA in November 1985!!!!!! Yet when you talk to him he will say it's a 1966 GT40 MK1. Look on page 321 of Ronnie Spain's book GT40 An Individual History and Race Record. The people running these events mix and match the rules according to who they are dealing with which is very sad indeed. I'm sure it's the same around the world.
Steve

 

[Randy V]

It's been my experience in this area that the Vintage organizations are loosening up a bit on their requirements as the groups are aging (graying) and the cars are even more valuable - hence less chances are being taken. Even my Factory Five Cobra Spec Racer was allowed to compete a few years ago in the VH class (Vintage-Historic).
I've a feeling that this slackening of the requirements will continue.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I tried to read some of this stuff but I couldn't make a lot of sense of it. I did figure out that I would have to change the rocker arms in 1149s engine- at least. I can't figure out if it would be eligible for anything or not. It's kind of academic- I can't afford either the time or the money to ship it to Europe to run in any kind of event, and if I could, my driving skills would get me laughed off the track anyway. Maybe I could compete in a clown suit, but it's hard to heel-and-toe in those big shoes....

But my car has a 1968 302 engine block AND a vintage Ford Zephyr demister grille, courtesy of either David Brown or Brian Stewart, I can't recall which, who kindly sent it to me, so maybe it is eligible for a HTP after all!! Look out, Claude, I'm right in your mirrors!!!!

 

[Cliff Beer]

["I haven't vintage raced in Europe. However, there's a very active vintage racing group in my area (Northwestern United States) and it's clear that if the car wasn't built prior to 1970 then it makes no difference what papers are with the car, it's not going on the track. Replicas are strictly forbidden, no matter how accurate or "papered"]

Unfortunately Cliff this is not correct! At least one glaring example here in the Northwest is D. Kirk's Safir MKV that is listed year after year as a "1966 Ford GT40 MK1". There are several books listing Kirk's car as having been purchased as a roller/unpainted and shipped to the USA in November 1985!!!!!! Yet when you talk to him he will say it's a 1966 GT40 MK1. Look on page 321 of Ronnie Spain's book GT40 An Individual History and Race Record. The people running these events mix and match the rules according to who they are dealing with which is very sad indeed. I'm sure it's the same around the world.
Steve

Hi Steve,

That's interesting. I wasn't aware that D Kirks Safir was being allowed to run (is that the powder blue GT40 that's at the SOVREN track days??) SOVREN events despite the supposedly very strict date-of-original-construction standard.

My 2002 CAV is registered in WA State as a 1966 Ford GT40. When I contacted SOVREN they said "no way" before I even got out two words. I guess perhaps I don't "know" anyone important calling the shots at SOVREN!

A couple years ago I had my CAV at the SOVREN track day in the paddock area - was thinking at the time how easy it would be to slip out onto the track amongst the other vintage big block iron and let 'er run hard!

 

[Steve26]

Hi Cliff,
Yes his is the #17 powder blue car that is there year after year. I went one year and spent 20 minutes talking to Dan Gurney who was VERY warm and friendly, a true car guy. I tried to talk to Doug Kirk and he was a dick with ears and very pompous and full of himself. His car was imoprted in November 1985 as a roller and completed in the USA and in no way is eligible to run in any vintage event but they allow him to run every year. I guess knowing the right people and donating enough $$$$$$$$$$ to the right charity will get you in. Sad but true.

Steve

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Golden rule, I guess: he who has the gold rules, or something like that. A shame.