I never cease to be amazed!

[Jim Craik]

No one has grown government and government spending like Reagan and Bush2, Bush1 raised taxes (after promising "no new taxes"), Bush2 cut taxes then started two wars with no way to pay for them (how did that work for the economy!!).

You can blame "tax and spend" Liberals if you want, but nobody taxes and spends like Selfish-Conservatives. Just look at the numbers, if you want to keep your money, you need to vote for Liberals.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Al, I see that you have not commented on the fact that no one taxes and spends like Conservatives and no one grows govenment like Conservatives. Would you like to explan why you still back a group that has so damaged our economy. Additionally, these same Conservatives also past the last major gun control law and the last major illegal alian amnisty law.

So Al, if liberals had done these things you would rightly not support them, why then do you support Conservatives?

 

[Jim Craik]

Al.....

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

You believe what you do and I won't change that nor do I care to try. Back to immigration. Being in San Fran, you have no idea what the problems are in AZ, New Mexico, Texas, and CA.

 

[Doug S.]

Al, I see that you have not commented on the fact that no one taxes and spends like Conservatives and no one grows govenment like Conservatives.

Gee, Jim....does that make our Bee-OH a conservative? It would according to the things I've been reading on this thread.......:huh:

Al, help us out, here....what say you? No need to try to change anyone's mind, just a civil exchange of opinions, OK?

I, for one, am always willing to listen to anyone's opinions, regardless of whether or not the intent is to change my mind....sometimes it does, sometimes it is just something to think about.

Doug

 

[Jim Craik]

Al, I see that you have not commented on the fact that no one taxes and spends like Conservatives and no one grows govenment like Conservatives. Would you like to explan why you still back a group that has so damaged our economy. Additionally, these same Conservatives also past the last major gun control law and the last major illegal alian amnisty law.

So Al, if liberals had done these things you would rightly not support them, why then do you support Conservatives?

You believe what you do and I won't change that nor do I care to try. Back to immigration. Being in San Fran, you have no idea what the problems are in AZ, New Mexico, Texas, and CA.

Al, first off, what I quoted above is not what I "believe", it is fact and you know it! I know you looked for data to prove me wrong!

Second, I live approximately 40 miles from San Francisco, in the center of US Capitalism and Venture Capital, the Silicon Valley. We live in a town called Saratoga Village. There are no hippies around here, they can't afford it!

Third what makes you think I have "no idea" about immigration problems!

 

[Jim Craik]

A few years ago, my family spent a week at Christmas time in southern Texas with my wifes sister (outside Brownsville).

When we were there they took us across the border into Mexico as my sister-inlaw needed some dental work and wanted to fill a perscription. When we got to the border, there were literally hundreds of good US Citizens going to Mexico for similar reasons as she said everyone goes there as it is much "cheaper than in Texas".

So we have good US Citizens crossing the border for ECONOMIC reasons, taking jobs from US Dentists, Doctors, Pharmacists and of course cheating the US and Texas out of their needed tax $

Can you say hypocrites

Say Al, do they do this in Arizona?

Al, I posted this awhile back, I notice you did not give a snappy retort to this one either.

So Al, do they do this kind of thing in Arizona?

 

[Jim Craik]

Hay Doug, how you doing?

I know I planned to stay out of this sort of discussion but Al continually starts this type of thread and continually distorts the truth. Then they started with this "the difference between Conservatives and Liberals" and I just could not take it any more!

Sorry if a ruffled any feathers but crap is crap!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, I posted this awhile back, I notice you did not give a snappy retort to this one either.

So Al, do they do this kind of thing in Arizona?[/QUOTE

Before the border became so dangerous, plenty of people crossed the border into Mexico to get perscriptions filled and inexpensive dental care. Some still do. Perscriptions are cheaper in Canada as well. There are some good dentists in Mexico I guess, I don't go there, but if I had a monetary problem I might consider it. We have people crossing more for economic reasons than anything else. The last tme I was at my dentists office there were 5 people waiting in the reception room. I don't think he's hurting for business. The people that are crossing are not taking jobs from Mexicans, they are stimulating the Mexican economy and they are in Mexico legally, whereas the illegals do take US American jobs and are in the US illegally. I don't see your comparison. And I didn't see this post before, so please forgive me for not replying.

 

[Doug S.]

Doing fine, Jim!

Hey, I can see why we're all so passionate about these issues....it seems like our country's future is so at risk right now.

I have opinions all over the spectrum, so I can see things from both sides.....and always try to do so when somebody promotes a fairly persuasive position. Insults don't do it for me.....just not convincing at all :thumbsdown: , or even entertaining.

Don't forget, though....Al's posts ARE the truth to him, he just sees things differently. I'm constantly impressed with Jeff Young's posts....very reasoned, very well thought out, very well supported with facts, and for the most part diplomatically stated.

Cheers from Doug!!!

 

[Jim Craik]

Doug,

Boy your right about Jeff, I do not remember reading anyone who can so clearly and cogently lay out an opinion. He is a very very valuable addition to our little group.

I make some point I think is very clear and concise and later read them and it is often drivel. More often than not in return I get a snappy retort that may or may not have anything to do with my post.

When Jeff makes a point we all stand around with our mouths open, and I notice very few retorts (what can you say)!

 

[Jim Craik]

Thanks Al, I appreciate your candor!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, I see that you have not commented on the fact that no one taxes and spends like Conservatives and no one grows govenment like Conservatives. Would you like to explan why you still back a group that has so damaged our economy. Additionally, these same Conservatives also past the last major gun control law and the last major illegal alian amnisty law.

So Al, if liberals had done these things you would rightly not support them, why then do you support Conservatives?

Jim, That is silly. Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, the takeover of GM, etc. all liberal programs. That would be government growth. The national debt was at about $10 trillion when BO took office. The Democrats took over the senate and congress in 2006, so for the last 2 years of his presidency GWB was contolled by a Democratic majority, and they have been in control for the past 3.5 years. The debt is at $13+ trillion now. This is a CBS (very liberal I might remind you) piece.

"The administration projects it'll climb to $14-trillion next year and in 2013 wind up at $17.1-trillion dollars – very close to matching the size of the entire economy as measured by the projected Gross Domestic Product. And taxpayers will be paying hundreds of billions in interest on the debt each year.

The budget, which carries the title "A New Era of Responsibility," shows that at the end of ten years, the National Debt will hit $23.1-trillion dollars – exactly matching the GDP that year."

At this point we will follow in Greece's footsteps! Scary shit!
"A New Era of irresponsibility," I sincerely hope you don't have children, because they will be MFing you and our generation for years to come. And you were saying?

I really don't feel like talking about this anymore, it's depressing!

 

[Jim Craik]

Good night Al,

and you do not need to worry about my kids, they will be just fine.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I don't recall this being posted before, it's a good piece.

Calderon Gets Well-Deserved Smack-Down Grand Rants

 

[Pat Buckley]

Agreed.

 

[Jeff Young]

Actually, it's not silly, it's undisputed.

I repost the chart again below. Since WWII, Republican Presidents have been, far and away, responsible for growing the national debt (as a percentage of GDP).

Why is this? Because Reagan and Bush II coupled tax cuts with spending INCREASES (mostly on wars/defense) without cutting any social programs. Which is a political hot potato in the US not because Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid and Medicare are "liberal" programs -- in fact they are American programs and the public would not support cutting/eliminating them.

Jim is 100% correct. In the post war era, Republican Presidents have been debt increasing, for the most part, Democrats have reduced it. Obama is the exception, but again, whoever the president was we were getting TARP, the stimulus and the bailout of GM.

Obama's real test will come in 11 and 12, and (if there is one) a second term. Then we get to see if he is a fiscal Clinton (debt reducer) or Bush II (huge increases).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Federal_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President.jpg

Jim, That is silly. Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, the takeover of GM, etc. all liberal programs. That would be government growth. The national debt was at about $10 trillion when BO took office. The Democrats took over the senate and congress in 2006, so for the last 2 years of his presidency GWB was contolled by a Democratic majority, and they have been in control for the past 3.5 years. The debt is at $13+ trillion now. This is a CBS (very liberal I might remind you) piece.

"The administration projects it'll climb to $14-trillion next year and in 2013 wind up at $17.1-trillion dollars – very close to matching the size of the entire economy as measured by the projected Gross Domestic Product. And taxpayers will be paying hundreds of billions in interest on the debt each year.

The budget, which carries the title "A New Era of Responsibility," shows that at the end of ten years, the National Debt will hit $23.1-trillion dollars – exactly matching the GDP that year."

At this point we will follow in Greece's footsteps! Scary shit!
"A New Era of irresponsibility," I sincerely hope you don't have children, because they will be MFing you and our generation for years to come. And you were saying?

I really don't feel like talking about this anymore, it's depressing!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Actually, it's not silly, it's undisputed.

I repost the chart again below. Since WWII, Republican Presidents have been, far and away, responsible for growing the national debt (as a percentage of GDP).

Why is this? Because Reagan and Bush II coupled tax cuts with spending INCREASES (mostly on wars/defense) without cutting any social programs. Which is a political hot potato in the US not because Social Security, Welfare, Medicaid and Medicare are "liberal" programs -- in fact they are American programs and the public would not support cutting/eliminating them.

Jim is 100% correct. In the post war era, Republican Presidents have been debt increasing, for the most part, Democrats have reduced it. Obama is the exception, but again, whoever the president was we were getting TARP, the stimulus and the bailout of GM.

Obama's real test will come in 11 and 12, and (if there is one) a second term. Then we get to see if he is a fiscal Clinton (debt reducer) or Bush II (huge increases).

File:US Federal Debt as Percent of GDP by President.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about growing government? Obama is going to expand the debt more than all past presidents combined.

 

[Jim Craik]

So Al, you miss Clinton yet?

 

[domtoni]

Jeff, the number I heard about BHO's debt expansion went from 3% of GDP to 12%.

My second hero, Gordon Brown's deficits, went from 6% of GDP to 12% of GDP. Now you are aware of the new coalition government cutting back on spending. You may have even heard Rick Santelli's comment on stop spending.

BHO hasn't got the message yet despite all that came out of recent EU and G20 activity.

I wouldn't worry about 3% deficit against GDP when it was quadrupled from there.

Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

 

[Jeff Young]

That is a bold prediction. We'll simply have to see. I disagree; Obama appears to be about as pragmatic as they come. Too much idealism sometimes, and belief that everything can be "fixed," but mostly pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic.

I don't see any real desire by him and his closest advisors to expand Government. Health care reform is the only area where that appears to be the case, and again, honestly, that was something that was coming/had to come anyway.