Improper Cam Break In - Zinc Additives?

[flatchat(Chris)]

Re: They don't make cams like they used to--it seeems

Have to agree with you Kev -- BUT, this is 'ole skool stuff never used to be a problem 'till they changed things:laugh: and we're goin' down with the dinosaurs:laugh:
OK -- found a Lucas oil that has Zinc @ 3500 ppm 20/50 they say ideal for flat tappet apps
Mobil has 1800 > ppm --some other Co's have .11 -.15%
So , Whats optimum ppm, % or Kg per Cu /F ??

 

[Clayton]

Re: They don't make cams like they used to--it seeems

This is from Cam Shield cam-shield premium ZDDP antiwear protection for camshafts, lifters and valve trains in your classic car or hot rod web site.
Use it in my SOHC Pinto and seems to work.

Clayton



Add enough Cam-shield™ premium ZDDP concentrate to get to the appropriate concentration for that application. Current API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils will have approximately 850 ppm Zinc.

• Minimum of 1200 to 1300 ppm Zinc for normal operation with moderate valve spring pressures (add ¼ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil)
• Approximately 1600 ppm Zinc for normal operation of muscle cars (add ¼ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil)
• Approximately 2000 ppm Zinc for racing (add ½ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil)
• Approximately 2500 ppm Zinc for new cam/lifter break-in (add ½ ounce Cam-shield to each quart of engine oil, supplementing the cam lobe molybdenum break-in paste)

Cam-shield™ is the only product concentrated enough to allow you to treat for break-in or racing or normal operation. 1/4 ounce of Cam-shield™ per quart of engine oil adds 800 ppm Zinc, 1/2 ounce of Cam-shield™ per quart adds 1600 ppm Zinc.

 

[Dave Bilyk]

Re: They don't make cams like they used to--it seeems

Just a question for you guys.
What I would like to know is why have solid lifters given the dangers?

Originality - yes that will be a factor for originals and those who desire that for their replicas.

Performance
- little danger of break in issues and a few more hp for roller lifters I hear.
- how about rpm, is there a difference in capability, will roller lifters do the same rpm?

Can you guys fill in any gaps so I can appreciate the overall picture?

When I got an upgrade camshaft I got a roller camshaft and lifters as it seemed no contest to me, but then I am not going racing, so it was a no brainer for me. I am in the process of putting the engine back in now.

Dave

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Re: They don't make cams like they used to--it seeems

You'll be good to go with the roller cam Dave --just make sure the lifters and keepers are the best you can get --have seen them Farcup as well.
Flat spotting rollers due to synthetic oils --allegedly
For me, the flat tappet, solid or hydraulic is just a period thing for that motor and less things to bugger up once the cam has bedded itself in successfully

 

[Jac Mac]

Things I do to make the flat tappet work..

Groove the lifter bore's.

Pre-fit the cam & lifters lightly oiled, spin the cam with drill & with light finger pressure via a couple of pushrods @ a time check ALL lifters for rotation while doing so.

Nothing over ~90lbs seat pressure for initial start, pre oil with old gear/less dist prior to first start, ensure that spark/fuel etc are correct, straight to 2500 RPM for first start & hold it there +/- 250 rpm for around twenty / thirty minutes.

If its a race type cam profile, then remove intake manifold & check all lifters and balance of valve train for correct wear patterns, if all OK then fit correct spring package. Avoid any low RPM idle conditions for first few hours of running.

 

[Rich E.]

Valvoline VR1 20-50 non synthetic is what I use in my motors. A decent amount of ZDDP but I don't think a lack of it is what caused your problem.

What was your seat pressure and type of spring? I hate to ask but did you prime the system before you fired it.

BTW, ouch. Sorry for what your gonna have to go through to make it right again.

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Re: Proper Cam Break In with Zinc Additives?

All back together and running sweetly --get some miles up --check over, reinstall spring dampers and use oils with zddp
Also fitted a magnetic sump plug --just in case theres some Chev schapnel floating around.:laugh:

 

[EGLITOM]

DTO

USING VR1 20 W50 as well, plus ZDDP Additiv pumping level up to 2200 ppm.

TOM

 

[Jim]

Hi Chris, about your cam and lifter problem... may not be makers fault...
There was an excellent article in Hot Rod Magazine a year or so ago on the subject of flat tappet cam problems with todays engine oils. The article explained that the U.S. government forced oil companies to reduce zinc anti-wear additives by 75%. With the reduction of zinc additives, U.S. car engines adopted roller cams to eliminate cam failures. Zinc additive reduction was to make catalytic exhaust converters last 100,000 miles before plugging. As governments copycat, I imagine the zinc additive reduction has happened where you are too. This zinc reduction is wreaking havoc with flat tappet cams, especially cams that see performance applications. Heavy Duty diesel oils and racing oils should have the zinc additives, but I'd check with the oil maker to be sure, and yes, there are separate zinc oil additives.
If you have a choice, the roller cam is far better than a flat tappet cam. Roller cams are more expensive, but they offer superior valve opening and reduced friction vs flat tappet cams. Therefore, rollers cams produce more horsepower and are more reliable. That's why over the road trucks, aircraft, tractors and expensive race engines usually use roller cams.
While you are updating your engine, don't forget to instal a set of roller rockers. Ranger Jim

 

[mark b.]

guy on another forum did some (lots) of oil tests, would heat the oil and use a ball bearing and whatever to test film strength, etc. did the add zddp thing with some of the oil, and it had the opposite effect or no effect, but was not helpful in a significant amount of the samples.

i had some older oil sitting around that i used one time, after pouring it in, i needed a container so i opened one of the plastic quart containers and inside at the bottom was a lot of the 'stuff' that should of left the bottle with the oil!

 

[Darrin]

This thread is as old as the hills but to add my $0.02...

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time at a local race shop with my dad (his side project). The engine was routinely torn down and rebuilt. Every time they did so I recall the same procedure. They used a special cam lube (like this Moly assembly lube 1 lb. think it was Crane). That went on in a healthy amount then they used a drill fitted with a homemade adapter into the distributor to spin the thing for quite a while. After that they set the timing, and then fired it up to a healthy RPM.

I did some digging and found a very good article which describes what they did almost exactly: How to Break in a New Cam - Tech - Car Craft Magazine

FWIW, they never ever had an issue with a camshaft.

As for oil, I'd suggest taking a peak at "Bob is the oil guy" forum. Last time I checked, they really liked Pennzoil Ultra Full Synthetic and that's what I run in my cars. In fact, I've run synthetic since...well...I've always run it and it is superior (just check the analysis sheets at that forum some time).

 

[Mike Pass]

I too used to use Valvoline VR1 but having spoken to our local V8 builder who has had some cam scuffing issues and on his recommendation I have changed to Lucas racing oil which has added ZDDP. He told me that due to government legislation the Valvoline Racing VR1 no longer has the added zinc compound and hence the spate of cam scuffing issues. It seems amazing that they could take out the zinc and not tell anyone, especially engine builders. I guess we have to be extra careful about what we buy and ensure that we have a good level of ZDDP in the oil in our flat tappet motors, especially at break in time.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Howard Jones]

Search engine guys.............

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...st/30399-flat-tappet-cam-failure-bad-oil.html

If you are not adding ZDDP then flat tappet cams will not work. I am not completely sure if you are out of the USA but why wouldn't you add it. Cheaper than rebuilding motors and buying cams/lifters.

I converted My SBC to roller hyd just for this reason.

 

[Darrin]

Search engine guys.............
I converted My SBC to roller hyd just for this reason.

Agreed. Not sure why anyone wouldn't want to go this route. They make retro fit kits making it fairly inexpensive too.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

.... due to government legislation the Valvoline Racing VR1 no longer has the added zinc compound and hence the spate of cam scuffing issues.

I'm a little confused by this assertion. AFAIK the changes in zinc/phosphorus content started in the '90s and finished three years ago with classification SN. Furthermore the current spec for VR1 says it contains 13 ppm zinc and 12 ppm phosporus, which I understood to be sufficient for flat tappet survival. The "not street legal" Valvoline racing oil contains 14 and 13 ppm respectively. According to ZDDP Plus Central, ZDDPlus oil additive - Home ZDDPlus zinc oil additive (doc dated 2008) the levels before these changes were 18/13 ppm respectively.

So in what time frame is your builder saying an unannounced change was made? I just want to make sure we aren't rehashing some old news.

Valvoline.com > FAQs > Motor Oil Car FAQs > Racing Oil
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

 

[EGLITOM]

Alan

i may be wrong but i always thought the number in the VR1 datasheet states the values in percent:
As 0.13% =1300 ppm and 0.14% = 1400 ppm

This would go coherent with the reco of ZDDP additive manufacturers for a need of at least 0.18% (1800pppm) of Zinc and 0.13% of Phosphorus (1300ppm). Modern synthethic oils are down at values from 500 - 700 ppm.
I´m personally using VR1 and add ZDDP plus to a total level of 2200ppm of Zinc. My high RPM cam ( up to 8000 RPM) with triple valvesprings and Flat tappets look like new ( have my rev limit set at 7200 because power is plenty). As far a i know my engine builder Gordon Levy used a special break in oil and procedure before and the break in oil also at the initial dyno runs.

Thanks
TOM

 

[Seymour Snerd]

i may be wrong but i always thought the number in the VR1 datasheet states the values in percent:
As 0.13% =1300 ppm and 0.14% = 1400 ppm

You're right of course. I got sloppy with my zeroes.

 

[Jeff Young]

Lube the hell out o the cam with Redline assembly lube and then use one of the high end, ZDDP/zinc rich break in oils - Joe Gibbs or Brad Penn.

After that, you can use regular oils with a zinc additive.

 

[Glenn M]

Mike,
I've been very happy with it, and the people I buy it from;
Fluids in Motorsport
say this in their current catalogue;

Vr1 Racing 20w50 (mineral)
Well established by many engine builders for older high performance and race engines because of its extra Zinc Anti-wear additives (ZDDP)

Glenn