Noisy suspension rod end joints

[SteveB]

I have rose jointed suspension, that's the front top wishbone and all the joints in the rear.
Over time some of the joints have progressively started to transmit a slight chattering noise particularly when lightly loaded.
There is no discernible free-play in the joints just this noise. The car has done 7,000 miles mostly on UK local roads and track days.

Have you had this issue?

Looking for replacements for the 1/2" x 1/2"UNF male items the choice is wide from £8 to £80 + each PTFE lined, Kevlar/Teflon injected, lubricateable, integral dust shielded and even a separate dirt shield boot.

Which joint available in the UK have you found to have the most long lasting resistance to this issue?

Here are links to one source. Has anyone used these?

Rose Joint 1/2" x 1/2" Rod End Right Hand Male | Ultra High Performance

Rose Joint Rubber Dust Protection Sealing Boot for M12

Steve

 

[John]

chroMly Teflon lined for me, dust boots are a good investment for a road car.

john

 

[Brett James-McCall]

Steve,
The McGill ones are what I have bought for my build, even though it hasn't been on the road yet!

Brett

 

[Keith]

I was thinking that 7,000 miles is a pretty darned good life cycle for rod ends!

If there's no play then 'chatter' is 'patina'.. a bit like straight cut gears...

 

[Ian Anderson]

I remember reading somewhere Johnny Joints were the way to go
Johnny Joint®

Ian

 

[Cliff Beer]

Steve,

My bit of experience has been the following....

A very, very small amount of play in a rose joint can transmit a large vibration and squeak/bump. In fact, it's very hard to even feel the play in it....because even a small amount of loading will take it up. It's pretty rare that a suspension joint doesn't have some loading on it...even at full droop or otherwise. It's hard to feel, basically.

Rose Joints aren't tough to replace. I've replaced a lot of them over the years. First I do some careful measurements (so things go back in the same position with the new joint). A good quality digital micrometer is helpful here.

I have a huge collection of new rose joints in my inventory so I always have the right one on hand. There's an incredible variety beyond just the usual LH, RH, male/female, bore size, shank size, thread, etc. I tend to use the chromoly steel with the lubricate-able nipple. Every 3-4 months I go around and give 'em a little grease.

There's definitely a hierarchy of quality. The low quality ones look like they really belong on a shop stove. The high quality ones are precisely machined, nicely finished, made of high quality alloys and have good quality threads. The cheap ones have none of this. Some come with specs (loading, etc.)...these are the good ones. The cheap ones don't come with specs. I don't buy any Chinese rose joints. That's just me.

The joints you can buy from places like Summit and Jegs (they call them "rod ends") are generally good, although I wouldn't buy the Summit-branded joints. Competition Engineering and QA1 make good quality stuff you can buy through Summit for good prices.

7,000 miles is a fair number of miles for a rose joint. They're not like rubber bushings which will take a beating over the long haul and still be reasonably OK. Once a rose joint has lost it's precise tolerance, it's done.

Just my $.02.

 

[Howard Jones]

Here's my take on rod ends. The ones that you REALLY need to watch and replace more often than not (that means if you think its a problem change it) are the ones on bottom wish bones. That's where a huge amount of the load it. Then radius arms are second. Lastly the top wish bones. This not to say don't worry about the tops it's just that they are fairly lightly loaded in comparison to the bottoms.

Don't forget about the shock eyes. On a coil over suspension like ours a shock eye failure will put that corner right on the ground and through the fender.

I agree with using name brand rod ends as well as QA-1 from summit or QA-1 themselves. The no name stuff may be cheep............. Think lower front A Arm going adrift in a fast corner. Use the good stuff at least where the high loads are, keep them clean (the dust covers are a good idea, but they make them hard to inspect) and watch them closely.

 

[SteveB]

Thanks for the input, all good points.
I looked at the Johnny joints but there are none small enough but the principal looks good maybe a rebuild-able rod end with polyurethane inserts is a product waiting to happen.
I had hoped to find a brand or type product that was particularly resistant to the light load chatter.

I have found that a thorough clean and lubricate with the spray Teflon used for marine gearshift cables quietened the joints for a hundred mikes or so but gradually the noise returns.

I have bought a set for the front wishbones from McGill Motorsport that have Kevlar/Teflon injected that claims to provide some resilient material in the joint also providing some sealing from dirt, we will see. If it turns out OK I'll do the lot. (26 in total)
They have an offer on for the next month 8xLH + 8xRH 1/2 x 1/2 unf male with half nuts for £111 inc vat and postage (UK)

Steve

 

[John Milmont]

I have these Del-Sphere ends on my car. They feature a steel sphere inside 2 delrin halves. If the delrin starts to wear, you can adjust/tighten them with a special tool. And if they wear out completely, you can rebuild them. They are also greaseable.

http://www.spohn.net/shop/Del-Spher...ere-Pivot-Joint-34-16-Right-Hand-Threads.html

I just started running these and so far they seem to be pretty good. I dont have a lot of time on them yet, but so far they have given me a smooth and quiet operation.

The one down side is that the ends are quite large and may not be able to fit your application.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCcin1kbTT8

 

[SteveB]

John. Thanks for the information, I think the size would be an issue though the principal looks good.

I have fitted the replacement rod ends to the front wishbones. A test drive showed that I had fixed some of the chatter but there was more to do. There was still noise both back and front suspension.
When changing the joints, the play was only in two of the four rod ends and was hardly noticeable just loose but still had been noisy.

More checking at the rear, found the spherical joint in the lower eye of the shock absorbers had play in it. Compared to the rod ends in the suspension these are actually smaller and carry the full corner weight of the car. I have found some replacements with the Teflon/Kevlar liner and replaced both top and bottom bearings. The rest of the joints appeared OK.

The remaining rattle in the front set up turned out to be the brake pads chattering in the callipers. The diagnosis was not that easy as the pad chattering happened in the same conditions as the noise from the rod end joints; on bendy roads the brake pads and suspension are loaded up and go quiet, on motorways and straight roads the rod-ends chatter and the pads work loose and chatter.
The early HiSpec 6pot units I have do not have anti rattle devices. HiSpec confirm that they now fit these as standard. A mod kit is available so a set of new pads and the mod kit are on the way. If this fails to cure the noise then perhaps a residual pressure valve in the front line would help to keep the pads in contact.

What has come out of this is that the rod ends are more durable than I had thought.

Steve