Porsche 930 Starter Predicament

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Ron,

FYI, I have the IHI (via Kennedy) indexable starter and it will not index sufficiently to fit. I'll be taking Jeff's approach with it.

Al

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: A Starter Predicament - Followup

One comment on my previous post. The IHI starter will fit if the motor is in the position recommended by Fran.

I just learned that the half-shafts being supplied for my car are designed for the motor in the recommended (rearward) position. My motivation for moving the motor forward was to deal with a slight header interference issue with the rear deck resulting from the larger diameter headers on my car, so it looks like I will need to go with the recommended position and deal with the interference issue separately.

Regards,

Al

 

[Jeff Hamilton]

Re: A Starter Predicament

What trans are you using? I don't have any halfshafts yet but I'm tight on room with the late model G/50. So the halfshafts are too long to mount the output flange center on the spindle?
Jeff Hamilton

 

[fostereast]

Re: A Starter Predicament

RobbMc Performance Products - Ford A/T Starter

I know Robb Mcue is a small outfit that people on the FE forum are very happy with, he might have a starter that fits your needs or can be easily customized, from the picture on his site it looks like the mounting flange of one of his starters can be indexed.

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Jeff,

I have an inverted 930. Fran indicated the half shafts are designed to support the engine in the design (rearward) location. However, I don't have them in hand yet, so I can't answer your question.

Regards,

Al

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Al,

I've got the IHI starter in hand but can't check it. But you say I don't need too - the half shafts won't work in this configuration anyway?

I don't have half shafts, but I had not heard they won't fit. Problem is the cage is about to be fabbed up with the engine as is with a custom cross bar to clear the headers. If the engine absolutely must back back due to half shaft issues then I'll need to do that before cage work.

Here is an old top down picture of the alignment. It looks okay to me, but, I have never seen 930 half shafts or how they'll work around that area. I'd think they would work just fine, but I must not be understanding something about the packaging of the shafts and area there. It is tight as Jeff says, I'll ask RCR.

R


R

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Ron,

I can't really say - I have no idea of how much plunge the half-shafts/CVs support. I would assume that a custom length would be required in an ideal world (but that's a world I don't live in!)

Al

 

[Jeff Hamilton]

Re: A Starter Predicament

I don't think the half shafts will be a issue. I just looked at a ZF (Pantera) trans and the output flanges are about 10 1/2" back from the bellhousing. My G50/05 is a tick over 8". If you take a 14" shaft and move one end 2" the length doesn't change as much as I thought it would.
Jeff Hamilton

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Re: A Starter Predicament

As I mentioned to a couple of you guys earlier today , we are now in the process of making our own shafts(due to crappy vendor service for months and months on end) and as such will be roll splining the shaft with extra length spline and we can cut the snap ring groove in any location to accomodate you unruly ones...we already have the ZF axles in stock in two different lengths .... hope this helps ease the confussion.

Strangley enough these guys are having similar concerns to the ones I have with engines not being located in similar positions per personal choice....not sure why they are having problems as the engine and transaxle package is basically the same for every GTM...LSx and G50

FFCobra Discussion Forums: Axle Concerns

FFCobra Discussion Forums: FFR Axles, Outer CV Joint, Snap Ring Sheared Off?

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: A Starter Predicament

If some of you are shifting the location of the transaxles and consequently the location of the output flanges up or down from the 'ideal' position the halfshafts are going to plunge in the CV joint or splines a greater amount than normal and possibly have the same problem of failing the circlips etc as the guys on the FFCobra forum. This halfshaft alignment is critical and should be one of if not the primary consideration when mounting the engine/transaxle unit. Might not show up until later when you do a wheel alignment and increase rear track slightly to get correct settings.

Jac Mac

 

[Sandy]

Re: A Starter Predicament

What is the real problem, just the plunge / un-plunge distance? How are the sand buggy guys CV's surviving? They have crazy suspension angles (somewhere I think I saw up to 23 degs for stock 930 CV's, but not sure)?

Or is it just a matter of incorrect length of the original shafts not accounting for the movement when selecting the total length of the shaft so the plunge doesn't cause an issue.

Sorry for the non-starter question...

Sandy

 

[Russ Noble]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron's thread, and you know how he hates thread drift........

Surely it must be just incorrect length of drive shafts as suggested by Sandy?
As Sandy points out the sand rail guys have extreme alignment and movement. Be nice to know how they overcome the problem.

With respect to CV's, what's critical about half shaft alignment? Educate me Jac Mac! I hope you're wrong, coz I went for low CoG as the primary factor rather than alignment and mine will plunge about an inch to the trans at ride height!

Cheers

 

[Rick]

Re: A Starter Predicament

This starter model has no offset but a planetary gearset in the end. Other starter manufacturers may use the same motor too.

 

[Sandy]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Tilton makes a couple of 930 starters that have a different style motor/solenoid then the HiTorque models. They can be somewhat clocked but not 360 degs without some changes to the snout. They do sell blank un-finished snouts for your machining pleasure. These starters have the motor more inline with the center of the flange and have the solenoid hanging off the side. Below links to the pics/blue prints/ and info. They have 2 models one is std hp and other is hi-hp. The prints below are, I think for std hp version, not sure if the hi-hp is longer in the motor section. One other thing is that it looks like it could be clocked to almost any position since the solenoid assemble looks farther back then on the HiTorque models that have the motor assembly too close to the bolts that hold the snout to the bell housing.

Tilton Engineering - Starter, OE Replacement, Porsche

http://www.tiltonracing.com/pdfs/4172.pdf

http://www.tiltonracing.com/incs/imagethumb.php?picture=s0021

Summit Racing Parts and prices (Links might work)

TIL-54-11061 STD Ratings ($390 usd)
TIL-54-21061 High Power ($470 usd)

If your going to start with hacking up a starter I would look at this. One other thing is that it looks like a nicer fit but I'm spatially challenged and unless I had one in my hand hard to say.

HTH

Sandy

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Not to bring this up again but.....some good developments!

After buying a starter from Hi Torque that I deemed would not fit I returned it. When I called about the credit, which they will gladly refund, I got a different guy on the phone that said "didn't Jack tell you about the starter we make for sand rails..."

And off we go with another starter. The problem with the original one, as discussed on this thread, was that when it clocked into the "right" position you couldn't put a bolt through it to hold it on. Well, they already had that licked with the piece shown in the picture below.

So, they are sending me one of these that I can fit. If it didn't work I'll do the spacer thing, but this might just do the trick. They'll accept a return if it doesn't or, they said they could make one that will fit. Hi Torque are some good people to do with and they are the starter suppliers for Kennedy for future reference. Thanks for the references on that company to the numerous folks that suggested them.

Ron

 

[Alex Hirsbrunner]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Nice Find! Judging from the photo, this looks like the ticket. Let us know when you get it.

Thanks,

Al

 

[Sandy]

Re: A Starter Predicament

That will totally work if it can be rotated. The HiTorque would fit except the bolt in the way of the housing!

[edit] I have the short snout version shown in the above pic.

Good news indeed!

Sandy

 

[Ron Earp]

I got the starter a week or so back, but have had no time to do anything with it. This time of year has a lot of heavy travel and work for me, like every year, and everything gets held up for about three weeks. The Lola is actually still tied down on the trailer from the cage excursion. Until I'll get it off I've go no way to check this out. Anyhow, I'll have a look at it when back in town and get it off and to a place of work. I'll post pictures then and let you know how it comes out.

Best,
Ron

 

[Ron Earp]

Alright, for an update on the 930 starter. I got the modified Hi Torque starter that they do with the extended nose and it appears that it will fit fine. The car still has bodywork on it so it is hard to get in there. But just holding it up looks like the nose moves everything back far enough to take care of the issue.

 

[Randy V]

Wow - just clears the cradle now... Do you think there's any potential for inboard CV to come in contact under full droop?

I'd like to know your supplier on that starter. Although I'm not planning on a relocation of the engine like yours, I would like a good stout starter to spin my 10.5:1 compression engine over when it's hot..