Racing a GT40 Replica (was BEST GT40 for Racing)

[Jeff Young]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

That was an interesting weekend. I ran my ITS Triumph TR8 at the VIR Gold Cup. I'm not sure who the sanction was with. It might have been SVRA, but not sure.

It was the All Triumph year, and some Triumphs came over from England I think. It was the only way I could run, VIR doesn't typically allow post 74 (the year the track closed the first time I think) cars to run. Mine is a 1980.

I showed up and was immediately told it was a no go on my Hoosiers, so I had to spend $800 on a set of treaded Avons. Which were not good tires.....

The racing was interesting. I ran in the "All Triumph" group/race, and then in one of the standard vintage groups. In the "All Triumph" race, I won First Place V8 Triumphs! Yay for me! I did beat an old C Production TR8 (one of Ken Slagle's old cars) that should have been way quicker than me but had an early off.

The mixed vintage class was much more interesting. I ended up in a small group racing against an Elva Courier, a Production MGB with probably as much hp as me, and an Elan. It was fun racing. The tires stunk so I was a few seconds of my normal pace, but the dicing was decent.

The funny thing was that the races were SHORT -- five laps maybe, which at VIR is about 15 minutes, and yet cars were erupting around me everywhere. Something about 15:1 compression British and Italian buzzbomb motors I guess.

I remember going down the backstraight on the next to last lap and the smoke from a grenading TR4 was so thick I literally could not see for several hundred yards.

In the end I'd summarize vintage racing (and there was high dollar stuff there) as follows:

1. weird rule sets and car prep levels, a strange mishmash of things.

2. Racing is harder and better than you think, but the competition is still significantly less than at a SCCA club racing weekend. It's not a parade, but people aren't driving 10/10s the whole race either.

3. Cool to walk the paddock and look at cars, etc. As much a show as a race.

In 10-15 years, I may have more interest in doing this stuff. Right now, I like the rough and tumble world of SCCA ITS racing....

No kidding??? Then that might be pretty cool! I will check it out.

I know Jeff went to the VIR Gold vintage race some while ago, and I investigated it for my Datsun, but wasn't feeling too welcome. They required I get "old" tires and they didn't want modern graphics on my Datsun, i.e., take that skull off the hood. Not taking the skull off the hood, no sir.

 

[Randy V]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Although it is not listed in the GT category for SCCA, on the regional level it will be thrown into SPO, where it should be quite competitive.

Sorry to disagree with you - but I must... I've worked with SCCA Scrutineers for many years.. If it (the car) is not listed within the GT Specifications - it will almost 100% assuredly not be accepted into the ranks of Super Production.

The SCCA has very specific rules and guidelines.. Their coverage for any potential "gray area" is the mantra:

If we don't specifically tell you that you can do something - you cannot do it..​

Note that the SCCA Rules have been used as the foundation for literally every other sanctioning body in the USA that goes road racing.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

3. Building a car from the various kits and bringing it up to speed for NASA or SCCA will cost $125K to $150K. Lot's of development and still no guarantee of success.

The cost doesn't have to be that high IMHO. Our T70 is ready for SCCA/NASA racing and built to a pretty nice spec and is certainly less than half that number. While not a GT40, I think one could do the same with a kit GT40 as a race car for not much more, basically the difference in cost between a T70 kit and a GT40 kit.

Also, as far as I'm aware the only GT40 replica that is allowed to race in the HSR vintage series is the SPF.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Sorry to disagree with you - but I must... I've worked with SCCA Scrutineers for many years.. If it (the car) is not listed within the GT Specifications - it will almost 100% assuredly not be accepted into the ranks of Super Production.

Disagree if you must, I won't be offended. However, been there, done that (guess it's not quite 100%).

Nevertheless, regardless of what SCCA class it is in, there will still be plenty of cars to race against. SPO, GT1, STO, and ITE all have some very fast cars and capable drivers, and the fastest ones running up in the front of the field all want that overall win.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

.... Than most of my performance benefits over other GT40s will come not so much from having the Superformance GT40R over the CAV GTR OR The CAV over the Pathfinder GT40R BUT from my "custom development" of the car overtime? Is that where were at?

So with all that said (if its what we feel might is pretty accurate). Than is it safe to say also that there isn't much difference between the "R" models all these guys are offering?

Two minor points:

1. SPf GT40R and Pathfinder GT40R are the same thing.
2. Most of the changes from SPF GT40 to GT40R are described on the SPF web site as well as earlier threads on this forum.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Sorry to disagree with you - but I must... I've worked with SCCA Scrutineers for many years.. If it (the car) is not listed within the GT Specifications - it will almost 100% assuredly not be accepted into the ranks of Super Production.

Super Production O & U (SPO & SPU)January 1997 this class was accepted Division wide as a catch all for closed wheel vehicles from other road racing series and as a place for unique creations to have a venue in which to get track time. Vehicles must not be otherwise classed in the GCR/Category Specifications. The displacement separation for Over O (2500cc and above) and Under U(2499cc and below) [Effective Jan. 2003] and all Turbo or Supercharged vehicles will run in SP O. Series vehicles must conform to configuration safety rules of the series (owners responsibility to show proof). All non series vehicles must at a minimum comply with safety specifications as published in the SCCA GCR and GT / Production Specifications. Some divisions call this class IT"E".

I'm not sure why any of your scrutineer buddies would not allow this car in SPO, but at least as far as the Southeast Division's rules are written, it's precisely what the class was created for (bolding mine).

 

[F1Ash]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Ron, I have submitted an Inquiry to NASA and SCCA both. I will let you know what they respond with. Thanks for all the feedback btw! Cheers to everyone for that matter for being so helpful! Its really appreciated!!!!

While I wait for NASA and SCCA to respond to me, I have another topic I've been curious about:

"How do the GT40s compare in handling and OR lap times to some of the modern cars you guys are running with out there?" (i.e. E92 M3 - 997 Carrera - Lotus Exige etc.)

I understand the difference between the cars on an engineering and technological front when it comes to the active gadgets in the engines and the suspension components, but the GT40s you guys run have full race coil overs and weigh significantly less (roughly 900 lbs less than the M3, about 500 lbs less than the Porsche... 400 heavier than the Exige, but the 40 does have 2 times the engine power typically) My calculations are based on the assumption that the GT40 weighs 2,500 lbs with engine and trans... if Im wrong let me know what might be a good estimate. Either way... how does it compare still?


?!??!?!?? Just curious...

 

[Randy V]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

From the SCCA Rule book;

http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011 Tech/2011 GCR-printed version.pdf

2. In addition, organizers may include either or both of the following Optional Regional Classes in their events defined in 3.1.5, 3.1.6 and 3.1.7.

a. Super Production Class (SP) (Optional Regional Class): Cars which exceed the preparation limitations of the appli- cable Production or GT Category Rules but which meet the General Technical Specifications of Section 9 of the GCR for GT category cars. This includes cars not listed in the GT or Production specification pages, such as FIA homologated production cars.​

​

It appears that SCCA National has allowed SP to be Regionally administered - which may be an outlet for the Regions to form some of their own guidelines for SP. The note about FIA Homologation just may do the trick for the GT40 and others like it.

But I will direct you to page 102 and beyond in the GCR for Cage Design and then the rules governing GT cars (which SP needs to meet the Tech Specs) - These are not easy things to accommodate with a GT40. Given the door configuration of the GT40, I would not race one with a cage as required for the GT class cars. It could quite honestly become a tomb..

When building cars for W2W competition, I don't design and install a roll cage on the premise that it protect the driver from a possible shunt or the odd metal-to-metal that's expected in the course of competition. Rather I focus on the worst case scenario and maintaining the driver's survivability which requires him to be able to escape (without aid) from any position the car may be in - including upside down with the driver's door against a tree..

Scrutineer buddies -
Many have become my friends over the years - it's inevitable when you all have the same love of the sport. However, that doesn't stop me or them from doing their jobs. As a regional administrator of the SCCA, I have my own duties as well.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

But I will direct you to page 102 and beyond in the GCR for Cage Design and then the rules governing GT cars (which SP needs to meet the Tech Specs) - These are not easy things to accommodate with a GT40. Given the door configuration of the GT40, I would not race one with a cage as required for the GT class cars. It could quite honestly become a tomb..

This is something I pointed out earlier in the thread (post #47) and the topic has been discussed here with my local SCCA tech guys. The SPF "GT40R" replica needs a host of additional bars to be legal for SCCA competition. These bars will turn the car into something extremely hard to get in and out of. You can get away with it on a Lola Spyder replica since the car is open, but on a GT40 replica, or Lola Coupe replica, I just don't see much of a way to pull it off and have a usable race car. I'll be interested in seeing someone do it. .

I've been involved with the rules and reg of racing a Lola (same applies to GT40) in the NCR SCCA for about three years now. SPO isn't the answer, nor are some of the other GT classes. Why? Because they are excluded from so many events. Neither SPO or the GT classes are eligible to run the ECR enduro series or, pertinent for my needs, the VIR 13 Hour Charge of the Headlight Brigade. They are exuded from these events and thus with an SPO or GT car you will be stuck with short 10 lap sprints (sprints are wheel to wheel here in the US for our Euro readers).

Here in the NCR SCCA ITE is the solution because ITE is allowed to run these events. However, ITE is a regional class with no standard rule set. The individual regions decide what they want for ITE and one thing is for sure - an ITE car in one region may or may not fit ITE in another region. Despite the GCR reading regards to SPO "in some cases this is known as ITE", that is outdated and not true. SPO cars, in general, do not fit into most regional ITE classes. In fact, my ITE Lola does not fit ITE in regions to the South of me, but does to the North.

Bottom line is make sure your local competition chair and tech inspectors are on board with what you are doing from day one.

"How do the GT40s compare in handling and OR lap times to some of the modern cars you guys are running with out there?" (i.e. E92 M3 - 997 Carrera - Lotus Exige etc.)

Mr. Ash, I suggest you start a new thread on that topic. This topic has useful information for those seeking to run a GT40 in a modern race series and adding lap times into the mix is going to dilute it quite a bit.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

If it (the car) is not listed within the GT Specifications - it will almost 100% assuredly not be accepted into the ranks of Super Production.

This includes cars not listed in the GT or Production specification pages

Thank you for doing some homework and finding that tidbit. In the interest of avoiding confusion and misinformation, perhaps next time a bit of research in advance would be advisable.

I'm not sure why you feel the FIA homologation is the necessary caveat, the statement preceeding that (above) says it all.

As for making the cage safe, it simply required a redesign of the spider to incorporate the top of the door as part of the roof (check). As easy to climb out of as my Corvette and easier still when upside down. Race these cars without the proper cage and the odds of being alive to crawl out of that window in the scenario you describe is what becomes the issue.

I apologize for my ill advised reference to "buddies". As a point of explanation, I was reminded of certain local building inspectors who, in the absence of supporting documentation, will misquote, misinterpret, or just plain make shite up on their own.

 

[Johan]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

Wow, this conversation really got cranked up while I was away. Great stuff all. Now, if I may summarize.

1. You can't go "real" vintage racing with anything south of $400K.


2. The "R" spec cars from CAV and SPF will allow you to run in some "historic" races, but not much to run against. By the time you make them legal for NASA and SCCA, they will no longer be accepted by the historics.

3. Building a car from the various kits and bringing it up to speed for NASA or SCCA will cost $125K to $150K. Lot's of development and still no guarantee of success.

4. The Active Power GTR is purpose built for NASA Super Touring, and is ALREADY approved by NASA for such. With a unmolested LS6 it can compete in ST1, where the competition is plentiful and fierce. Swap in an LS7 or variant (sky's the limit) and move up to Super Unlimited. Everything about it is proper for this type of racing out of the box, and it costs less than $100K. Although it is not listed in the GT category for SCCA, on the regional level it will be thrown into SPO, where it should be quite competitive.

You cannot go to Monterey or Goodwood etc. but you can certainly go vintage racing in a GT40 replica. The two above named premier worldwide events do not define the type of vintage racing that is at issue. Suffice it to say that HSR and SVRA do not require the car to be original. They do require it to have the same flaws as the original though, especially SVRA. I raced my ERA chassied GT40 spyder in the GT40 reunion race last year and they knew it was a replica. They begged me to bring it because entries of original cars were so light.
As far as "not much to run against", come to the Mitty or the KIC or the Vintage Grand Prix at Watkins Glen and see what there is to run against. Plenty to run against ! You will have your hands full trying to keep up with the middle of the pack. Dennis Olthoff has done a wonderful job of getting to the front of the pack but a lot of that is the driver.
If you make them legal for NASA I do not see how they then become illegal for vintage racing unless Nasa etc. require huge brakes.
I agree that a nice GT40 replica race car is going to fall in this 125-150 price range, be it an ERA, Cav, SPF, whatever so long as it is constructed similarly to an original.
MKIV J6 (Jim) said a long time ago, and I agree with him, that the number of originals racing is declining and the fields are filling in with replicas. I personally would rather race against replicas than just drive around by myself so I am a supporter of allowing replicas to race in most vintage race venues.
If you want to race, the first thing to do is decide where. Don't write off vintage racing for the wrong reasons. It might not be for everybody but then again if you want to race NASA or SCCA then perhaps the GT40 type of experience, which is more or less a vintage platform, is not ideal for that.

 

[Tom Leonard]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

You cannot go to Monterey or Goodwood etc. but you can certainly go vintage racing in a GT40 replica. The two above named premier worldwide events do not define the type of vintage racing that is at issue. Suffice it to say that HSR and SVRA do not require the car to be original. They do require it to have the same flaws as the original though, especially SVRA.
As far as "not much to run against", come to the Mitty or the KIC or the Vintage Grand Prix at Watkins Glen and see what there is to run against. Plenty to run against !
If you make them legal for NASA I do not see how they then become illegal for vintage racing unless Nasa etc. require huge brakes.
I agree that a nice GT40 replica race car is going to fall in this 125-150 price range, be it an ERA, Cav, SPF, whatever.

I can attend 10 SCCA,NASA and PBOC races per year within 3 hrs drive. Expanding the drive to 10 hours puts more races within reach than I could attend in a year. If the OP is in Southern California, he would have even more options. If traveling all across the US to attend 6 races per year is in the cards, I say go for it.

The issue is not that meeting the NASA safety specs will make it un-vintage-worthy (NASA doesn't require big brakes), it's making the car competitive in the class(es) that it will run in that becomes the rub.

Edit---I will have to defer on this, I am not that familiar with historic and vintage rules. HSR seems to have a Sports Challenge class that is open to any car???

 

[Johan]

HSR no longer has a Sports Challenge class. They have group 5 which in short is for cars that originally came with headlights, doors and a passenger seat and run on treaded tires. Lola T70, GT40, Corvette, Porsche 911 RSR, Jag XKE, etc.
SVRA has a group 5 also which is for mid-engine Sports Racers such as the Lotus 23, Lola T70, GT40, Porsche 910, etc.
These groups are the groups Dennis Olthoff and I race in and they are very competitive.
As far as Vintage Racing events close to your home state of Alabama there are 10 in Georgia each year, 6 in Florida, and even some in Alabama at Barber. Sure, it is a haul to Road America and Watkins Glen but the nature of those events make it worth it and they get 400 cars from all over the world. The OP is in California so what he must do is attend some various events and decide if he would like to race with those clubs that are in his area. There are large numbers of original vintage/historic race cars out West so that has a lot to do with the allowance of replicas in West Coast events, but he asked about SVRA which is an organization based in the Southeast.
I am not trying to talk you into vintage racing. I am trying to keep the info accurate in case someone who IS interested reads this thread.

 

[Ian K]

Re: BEST GT40 for Racing??!!??

As for making the cage safe, it simply required a redesign of the spider to incorporate the top of the door as part of the roof (check). As easy to climb out of as my Corvette and easier still when upside down. Race these cars without the proper cage and the odds of being alive to crawl out of that window in the scenario you describe is what becomes the issue.

Tornado and others have made optional removable door tops so that the 40 can be converted into a spyder and back.

Ian

 

[Tom Leonard]

As far as Vintage Racing events close to your home state of Alabama there are 10 in Georgia each year, 6 in Florida, and even some in Alabama at Barber.

I am not trying to talk you into vintage racing. I am trying to keep the info accurate in case someone who IS interested reads this thread.

Begging your pardon, I didn't presume that you were trying to talk me into vintage racing any more than I was trying to talk you into NASA/SCCA. I was simply relaying my experience as relates to what's out there.

In the interest of keeping the info accurate, could you expound on the 10 races in Georgia? Checking the HSR and SVRA schedules posted on their websites, I see two HSR weekends at Road Atlanta (one being the Mitty) and one SVRA at Roebling.

 

[Johan]

Consider yourself pardoned..! I don't want to touch a raw nerve or something. I have run with SCCA and NASA.
Seems like last year I went to a VDCA event at Road Atlanta in Feb.
Then I went to the SVRA event at Roebling in March.
Then there was the Porsche Club event at Road Atlanta but that does not count.
Then I went to the Mitty .
Then there was the HSR Hutchinson Island event on the Indy lights course in Savannah.This year Ferrari Club and Porsche Club have their national meets there. Great place ! I will go to all three but only one counts.
This year there is a new event with HSR at the new 2 mile road course at Atlanta Motorsports Park in June. Porsche Club will go there as well but it does not count.
Then there was HSR at Road Atlanta in August.
Then there was the SVRA at Road Atlanta in Sept.
Then there was the HSR event at Hutchinson Island again in concert with the Hilton Head Concours.
Then there was the VDCA season finale at Roebling.
Add in NASA events at Road Atlanta (2 of them) and NASA events at Roebling and there are more than 10 events in Georgia to run a race. Add in driving events or track days and there becomes too many test and tunes to list.
This is just Georgia.
Add the events at Barber, Sebring, Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen, Road America, Daytona, New Jersey Motorsports Park, VIR, Moroso, etc and a person COULD be pretty busy...

This video http://vimeo.com/13533252
is from the KIC last year at Road America and which, while a Can Am race, is made up of cars that can and do run in SVRA group 5 or HSR group 5 or 7.
Dennis with his SPF GT40 would have run in this group but he ran in Group 5 instead.
As you can see, nobody wants to hit anybody and the racing is not 10/10ths. There is no bumping, rubbing, etc allowed which is not the case with NASA. Vintage racing is competitive however and a lot of fun in my opinion

 

[Tom Leonard]

My apologies, I thought the 10 number you quoted was just HSR and SVRA. Appears they may be downsizing their schedules for this year. With Savannah Harbor that makes 4.

I purposely discounted the AMP event. Their timeline projections have historically been WAY off. And now the bad weather (imagine that, bad weather in January) is "slowing things down".

 

[Johan]

What do you race ?

 

[Tom Leonard]

What do you race ?

Can you clarify the question? Are you asking what type of car or what sanctioning bodies? Although I'm not sure why either question would be endemic to the discussion.

Edit---Then again I may have assumed too much in that the question was directed at me...

 

[Cliff Beer]

While I was disappointed to find out that my CAV would not be eligible for vintage racing here in the Pacific Northwest (SOVREN) due to being a replica (ie not pre-1970 build date), I certainly can appreciate the simplicity of this basic qualifying rule.

Regarding the declining number of original GT40s out there racing, I actually think that allowing replica GT40s to race in vintage/historic classes actually increases the decline. Why? Because original GT40 owners are having to compete with newer (replica) cars that don't have all the typical, and expensive, problems of a 40 year old race car. The cost of maintaining and running an original car is extraordinarily high comparatively over the long haul. Imagine the cost of having to replace the original calipers or rebuild the (old and rusted) sponsons? Keeping your original/expsnvie GT40 original, and on the track, just to lose to faster replica cars ain't a lot of fun - at least that's what two original owners I know have mentioned in passing.

It's a slippery slope when the door is opened. I'll take the simple rule based on build date even though that means my CAV sits in the garage on track day. An old triumph or mg is nearly as much fun and consistent with the spirit of most historic racing.