Roaring Forties #80 Reborn!!!!
- Thread starter porsche93
- Start date
Re: Rf80 Reborn!!!!
Peter, I must tell you that I've been following your rebuild thread with great interest. At first I was dead set on building my own GT40 from the ground up, but as I read various "For Sale" postings I realize what a great deal can be had when buying an already partially or completely built replica. As much as I hate to admit it (to myself), I think I've changed my mind about building from the ground up and will probably look to buy a started or completed kit. Your build thread has had a huge influence in that decision.
Thanks for documenting the process you've undertaken. I look forward to your further postings.
Doug
Peter, I must tell you that I've been following your rebuild thread with great interest. At first I was dead set on building my own GT40 from the ground up, but as I read various "For Sale" postings I realize what a great deal can be had when buying an already partially or completely built replica. As much as I hate to admit it (to myself), I think I've changed my mind about building from the ground up and will probably look to buy a started or completed kit. Your build thread has had a huge influence in that decision.
Thanks for documenting the process you've undertaken. I look forward to your further postings.
Doug
Re: Rf80 Reborn!!!!
Doug,
I have mixed feelings about building or buying and the real answer depends on how anal a person you are. I for one take great pleasure in doing something right. I built and flew scale airplanes for many years and would agonize over getting the smallest detail right, then have the greatest sense of pride when I looked at it. When you buy already built you may save money in the long run but you buy someone elses build ethic or skill and that might not agree with yours. When you build from the start it takes longer but is truly a refelection of you.
RF80 is only in phase one, it will be fine tuned machenically over the summer and then torn down for body work and repainting. My intention is to address some issues that surfaced after I really got into the car. Most of the things would pass muster of most people but are like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to me. Phase two will address these item and bring the final product in line with my vision.
So the answer to the question buy or build really depends on what you want and how long you are willing to wait to get it. I will say that driving the car as you work on changes beats the hell out of looking at it setting on stands for years as you go voom voom. Now, if you should buy a car that meets your criteria and needs no changes you win the lottery.
PS. Buy a turnkey minus and supervise the build, then you install the engine and tranny yourself.
Peter
Doug,
I have mixed feelings about building or buying and the real answer depends on how anal a person you are. I for one take great pleasure in doing something right. I built and flew scale airplanes for many years and would agonize over getting the smallest detail right, then have the greatest sense of pride when I looked at it. When you buy already built you may save money in the long run but you buy someone elses build ethic or skill and that might not agree with yours. When you build from the start it takes longer but is truly a refelection of you.
RF80 is only in phase one, it will be fine tuned machenically over the summer and then torn down for body work and repainting. My intention is to address some issues that surfaced after I really got into the car. Most of the things would pass muster of most people but are like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to me. Phase two will address these item and bring the final product in line with my vision.
So the answer to the question buy or build really depends on what you want and how long you are willing to wait to get it. I will say that driving the car as you work on changes beats the hell out of looking at it setting on stands for years as you go voom voom. Now, if you should buy a car that meets your criteria and needs no changes you win the lottery.
PS. Buy a turnkey minus and supervise the build, then you install the engine and tranny yourself.
Peter
Re: Rf80 Reborn!!!!
Peter you are very correct to your statement that is a pleasure to see your creation form the beginning, However if a person has not the time require or the knowledge to proceed with such project, getting a complete or partially complete car might be an option.
I have proceeded to purchased the RF # 90 "MAN I WAS VERY LUCKY "
Looking the quality of work to the RF # 90 I am sure that you will make the RF # 80 one for the books
keep the good work and post more pictures
Peter you are very correct to your statement that is a pleasure to see your creation form the beginning, However if a person has not the time require or the knowledge to proceed with such project, getting a complete or partially complete car might be an option.
I have proceeded to purchased the RF # 90 "MAN I WAS VERY LUCKY "
Looking the quality of work to the RF # 90 I am sure that you will make the RF # 80 one for the books
keep the good work and post more pictures
Well it's been a while since I have updated this thread, life, business demands and just plain sh*t happens have all conspired to get in the way of this project, but now I do have an update.
After weeks of trying to figure out how to get the motor running with the Motec system I had reached the point of thinking a gallon of gas and a match would solve my problems. In those three weeks I have heard more backfiring and popping, had more no starts and fouled more plugs than in all my 59 years of playing with cars.
Last Friday I went to SpeedSource Inc. If you don't know the name of the company, you might know the name of the owner who is Sylvan Tremblay. If not the name of the owner then you might know the number 69 and 70 Mazda RX8's that compete in the Grand American racing series, and until some bad luck were leading the GT championship. Im lucky because this professional racing shop is located 6 miles from my home.
When I explained my problem I was able to set up a meeting with David Haskell who does the tuning for the race cars all using Motec ECU's. Within one hour the motor went from a mess to purrrrring on all eight cylinders with unbelivable response, and this is on the first visit. After the first session he left me to correct the hookup of the Lambda sensors which were wired incorrectly in the cars other life. The second session is tonight were he will use the Lambda to dial the fuel maps in. The Motec system is wonderfull in its capablity but if you don't speak the language of the software it will never be right till you get someone that does.
With the motor running I will be able to complete the debugging of the car and then corerect the body fit issues and repaint the car.
Peter
After weeks of trying to figure out how to get the motor running with the Motec system I had reached the point of thinking a gallon of gas and a match would solve my problems. In those three weeks I have heard more backfiring and popping, had more no starts and fouled more plugs than in all my 59 years of playing with cars.
Last Friday I went to SpeedSource Inc. If you don't know the name of the company, you might know the name of the owner who is Sylvan Tremblay. If not the name of the owner then you might know the number 69 and 70 Mazda RX8's that compete in the Grand American racing series, and until some bad luck were leading the GT championship. Im lucky because this professional racing shop is located 6 miles from my home.
When I explained my problem I was able to set up a meeting with David Haskell who does the tuning for the race cars all using Motec ECU's. Within one hour the motor went from a mess to purrrrring on all eight cylinders with unbelivable response, and this is on the first visit. After the first session he left me to correct the hookup of the Lambda sensors which were wired incorrectly in the cars other life. The second session is tonight were he will use the Lambda to dial the fuel maps in. The Motec system is wonderfull in its capablity but if you don't speak the language of the software it will never be right till you get someone that does.
With the motor running I will be able to complete the debugging of the car and then corerect the body fit issues and repaint the car.
Peter
Attachments
Dutton
Lifetime Supporter
Congrats on the success with the fuel system, Peter. I can only imagine the frustration and headaches until DH worked his magic. How fortunate to find that level of experience so close to home!
By the way, I'm looking forward to seeing your car one of these days. My sister lives in Plantation and the next time I'm in town...
Best,
T.
By the way, I'm looking forward to seeing your car one of these days. My sister lives in Plantation and the next time I'm in town...
Best,
T.
Sometimes determination and perseverance is the only way to achive your goal.
43 days have elapsed since my last post, I had thought that during that time I would have been driving and debugging The Yellow Bit*h (A term of endearment that I have named RF80.), unfortunately this has not been the case. Back on 9-12-07 with the motor running and only an hour or so of housekeeping items to take care of, TYB was going home, she never made it.
TYB was put on the lift to change the oil and adjust the shift linkage. While on the lift it was noticed that the main feed tank fitting on the swirl tank could be turned by hand. No leak was observed but this needed to be corrected. With a full tank you can imagine that this turned out to be a messy job, (I can assure you that gasoline will burn armpits.) a check of the other tank fitting also showed seepage which was also corrected.
While adjusting the shift linkage the transmission stuck in gear. After a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem it was decided that the only thing was to return the car to the guy who had installed the 3.22 gear set and rebuilt the transmission. Two weeks later I go to pick up the car at his shop, when I started the car I heard a noise in the Bell housing. Once again the transmission was removed and this guy tells me that there was no locating pin installed to line up the transmission. I was proud of myself that I didn’t beat this guy with a tire iron. I just showed him the pictures taken when I joined the engine and transmission which clearly showed the locating pins. It was obvious that the pins were lost when the transmission was pulled. New pins were machined and the transmission remounted.
With the car back in my hands the following was noted. The shift linkage was completely messed up; only 3rd , 4th and reverse gear was available in the box. The connector for the Lambda had been torn off the main harness, these connectors and pins cost $22.00 each from Motec. The car had been driven in the rain without a rear clip, so was a complete mess from the crap thrown up by the tires.
After correcting the problems I took the car for its first drive followed by popping and spitting like I had 5 cats in a gunny sack. I try checking the fuel map and adding some fuel because the motor seemed lean under load. This only partially corrected the problem, I pulled the plugs and found them all fouled from being to rich. Last night my tuner came back and using the logging and interrupter feature of the Motec software he was able to get the motor back in spec.
The car is now drivable, the linkage still needs to be adjusted so that the gears are easier to find and I have a check list of several items to be corrected but now my efforts will be toward refining the car as I put some miles on it.
Peter and TYB
43 days have elapsed since my last post, I had thought that during that time I would have been driving and debugging The Yellow Bit*h (A term of endearment that I have named RF80.), unfortunately this has not been the case. Back on 9-12-07 with the motor running and only an hour or so of housekeeping items to take care of, TYB was going home, she never made it.
TYB was put on the lift to change the oil and adjust the shift linkage. While on the lift it was noticed that the main feed tank fitting on the swirl tank could be turned by hand. No leak was observed but this needed to be corrected. With a full tank you can imagine that this turned out to be a messy job, (I can assure you that gasoline will burn armpits.) a check of the other tank fitting also showed seepage which was also corrected.
While adjusting the shift linkage the transmission stuck in gear. After a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem it was decided that the only thing was to return the car to the guy who had installed the 3.22 gear set and rebuilt the transmission. Two weeks later I go to pick up the car at his shop, when I started the car I heard a noise in the Bell housing. Once again the transmission was removed and this guy tells me that there was no locating pin installed to line up the transmission. I was proud of myself that I didn’t beat this guy with a tire iron. I just showed him the pictures taken when I joined the engine and transmission which clearly showed the locating pins. It was obvious that the pins were lost when the transmission was pulled. New pins were machined and the transmission remounted.
With the car back in my hands the following was noted. The shift linkage was completely messed up; only 3rd , 4th and reverse gear was available in the box. The connector for the Lambda had been torn off the main harness, these connectors and pins cost $22.00 each from Motec. The car had been driven in the rain without a rear clip, so was a complete mess from the crap thrown up by the tires.
After correcting the problems I took the car for its first drive followed by popping and spitting like I had 5 cats in a gunny sack. I try checking the fuel map and adding some fuel because the motor seemed lean under load. This only partially corrected the problem, I pulled the plugs and found them all fouled from being to rich. Last night my tuner came back and using the logging and interrupter feature of the Motec software he was able to get the motor back in spec.
The car is now drivable, the linkage still needs to be adjusted so that the gears are easier to find and I have a check list of several items to be corrected but now my efforts will be toward refining the car as I put some miles on it.
Peter and TYB
the joys of home built cars
Chris Kouba
Supporter
Hang in there Peter. I bet a few miles of smiles and things will look a little brighter.
Best of luck!
Best of luck!
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
I had the fouled plug problem at the weekend race meeting.A few things combined to cause it.Essentially the fuel maps at low revs/loads are a bit rich but adding to this is the cold temp compensation which adds more fuel till the engine gets up to temp.I drove the car last week to a club meeting and it never achieved operating temp.I also idled the car up through heat cycles to make sure air was bled from cooling system.I believe the problem of getting the car up to temp is caused partially by the large volume of water the system holds and how much the bypass feeds past the thermostat.The problem is also compounded by the very light throttle angle needed to sustain these cars at road speeds.Tuners don't seem to tune the maps in these areas very well either.I reckon your best bet is to tune these maps yourself while driving.Of course I'm assuming your running fuel injection and you have a helper operate the laptop while you are driving.A wide band Lambda sensor is required and I'd set all low load maps this way.I've noticed over rich fuel settings don't allow the engine to come up to temp quickly so it's a double edged sword.Too much fuel keeps the engine cool and slow to come up to temp,fouls the plugs and I found mine would get so bad the car would hardly run.
Hope it helps to know your not the only one with these kind of problems Peter.
Ross
Hope it helps to know your not the only one with these kind of problems Peter.
Ross
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
Yes just checked your photos and you have the DC&O manifold like mine and I assume you have a Motec M800, I have an M48 but essentially they are very similar.
Ross
Ross
Ross,
You analysis of the situation is spot on; I too have noticed that these cars seem to be cold blooded in the extreme. TYB has spend hours at idle and has never shown any indication of running hot. Being in Florida this tendency is not all a bad thing, on the other hand it does create the type of rich environment the leads to chronic plug fouling. Since the motor is new with less than 50 miles on it I want to leave it slightly rich for now but will review the Lambda readings while the cold compensation is on to see what if any adjustments might be required. As an aside I am running the M800 but this should have no bearing on the overall situation.
This discussion does bring up a question, what plugs and gap settings are folks running? When I did the engine build I just went to the auto parts store and got a set of plugs for a 5.0 Mustang. The plugs were Autolite but I have forgotten the number. Total cost of 8 plugs came to $12.00us plus tax. Those plugs were gaped to .035 and fouled almost right away. A second set of the same plug didn’t last much longer. After doing some research on the net I installed a set of Autolite Iridium Fine Wire XP103 plugs. The recommended gap was from .045 to .060 which really surprised me, so being old school I went with .045, the cost of these plugs were $54.00us, just a tad more costly.
These plugs ran cleanly without misfire for a couple of runs through the gears before the engine was completely warmed. By the time the engine had reached full operating temp a fouled plug misfire started to occur. When I pulled the plugs all 8 were fouled. Further research found that the XP103 plugs were the coldest offered in that line and that the medium heat range XP104 should work better. For the most recent tuning session I installed a new set of XP104 gapped at the recommended .054, the 104’s being a hotter plug than the 103’s.The fuel map has been cleaned up as stated before which should reduce the chance of fouling but does not reduce the lengthy rich warm up schedule. So far the plugs have one and a half hours of idling and being driven and have not fouled yet.
I would like to hear what other have experienced.
Peter
You analysis of the situation is spot on; I too have noticed that these cars seem to be cold blooded in the extreme. TYB has spend hours at idle and has never shown any indication of running hot. Being in Florida this tendency is not all a bad thing, on the other hand it does create the type of rich environment the leads to chronic plug fouling. Since the motor is new with less than 50 miles on it I want to leave it slightly rich for now but will review the Lambda readings while the cold compensation is on to see what if any adjustments might be required. As an aside I am running the M800 but this should have no bearing on the overall situation.
This discussion does bring up a question, what plugs and gap settings are folks running? When I did the engine build I just went to the auto parts store and got a set of plugs for a 5.0 Mustang. The plugs were Autolite but I have forgotten the number. Total cost of 8 plugs came to $12.00us plus tax. Those plugs were gaped to .035 and fouled almost right away. A second set of the same plug didn’t last much longer. After doing some research on the net I installed a set of Autolite Iridium Fine Wire XP103 plugs. The recommended gap was from .045 to .060 which really surprised me, so being old school I went with .045, the cost of these plugs were $54.00us, just a tad more costly.
These plugs ran cleanly without misfire for a couple of runs through the gears before the engine was completely warmed. By the time the engine had reached full operating temp a fouled plug misfire started to occur. When I pulled the plugs all 8 were fouled. Further research found that the XP103 plugs were the coldest offered in that line and that the medium heat range XP104 should work better. For the most recent tuning session I installed a new set of XP104 gapped at the recommended .054, the 104’s being a hotter plug than the 103’s.The fuel map has been cleaned up as stated before which should reduce the chance of fouling but does not reduce the lengthy rich warm up schedule. So far the plugs have one and a half hours of idling and being driven and have not fouled yet.
I would like to hear what other have experienced.
Peter
Peter Delaney
GT40s Supporter
Peter, I am running NGK BCPR5ES-11 plugs gapped out to 1.5mm (0.060").
4 coil-packs (wasted spark) & Autronic ECU.
No fouling problems at all.
Apart from all the variables associated with wasted-spark & Autronic vs Motec, it seems like the bigger plug gaps are not a bad idea.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
4 coil-packs (wasted spark) & Autronic ECU.
No fouling problems at all.
Apart from all the variables associated with wasted-spark & Autronic vs Motec, it seems like the bigger plug gaps are not a bad idea.
Kind Regards,
Peter D.
Peter,
Sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your new project - I guess there are days when you're sorry you took on this new project. Your old GT40 was probably less of a headache! (reminds me of the old adage - if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
I'm been having plug fouling problems with my GT40 - but thankfully I'm working with a plain old Holley - not an elaborate set up like yours. While trying to track down a jerking and bucking problem on mine, I wanted to see if the engine was having a fuel starvation problem (mine is a 350 chevy engine) so I put a double pumper 750 CFM Holley on. That was a mistake - plugs are fouling and engine backfires like yours. I've decided to try a smaller 670 CFM Holley with vacuum secondaries.
Good luck on your project - maybe I'll bump into you before the Carlisle Kit Car show next year!
John
epper:
Sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your new project - I guess there are days when you're sorry you took on this new project. Your old GT40 was probably less of a headache! (reminds me of the old adage - if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
I'm been having plug fouling problems with my GT40 - but thankfully I'm working with a plain old Holley - not an elaborate set up like yours. While trying to track down a jerking and bucking problem on mine, I wanted to see if the engine was having a fuel starvation problem (mine is a 350 chevy engine) so I put a double pumper 750 CFM Holley on. That was a mistake - plugs are fouling and engine backfires like yours. I've decided to try a smaller 670 CFM Holley with vacuum secondaries.
Good luck on your project - maybe I'll bump into you before the Carlisle Kit Car show next year!
John
epper:John,
Good to hear from you.
I think that the problem with tuning these cars or any car for that matter is associating the symptom we have with the correct problem or that the symptom might be caused by more than one problem. In this case the symptom is plug fouling associated with a rich mixture and this could be on an injected or carbureted engine. A rich mixture can foul the plugs leading to a misfire at some point in the rev range. The obvious thing would be to lean the mixture out but now you have a misfire or pop like before but this time it’s do to a lean condition at some point in the same rev range. The result is we end up chasing our tail.
I’m beginning to think that the only real way to correctly tune is with a wide band Lambda sensor, either stand alone or installed as part of an EFI system. When my tuner pulled the data log on my engine it showed RPM, TPS for load, MAP point, Lambda and more. I was able to look at a Lambda reading that went lean just before it misfired then jump to 1.4 during the misfire event. I also had told him that I had held the RPM to 4000 before shifting, he pointed out that the data showed 4,800. You just can’t fool the ECU.
I would suggest you find a shop with the stand alone Lambda or book some tuning time on a dyno to get the mixture right.
Peter
Good to hear from you.
I think that the problem with tuning these cars or any car for that matter is associating the symptom we have with the correct problem or that the symptom might be caused by more than one problem. In this case the symptom is plug fouling associated with a rich mixture and this could be on an injected or carbureted engine. A rich mixture can foul the plugs leading to a misfire at some point in the rev range. The obvious thing would be to lean the mixture out but now you have a misfire or pop like before but this time it’s do to a lean condition at some point in the same rev range. The result is we end up chasing our tail.
I’m beginning to think that the only real way to correctly tune is with a wide band Lambda sensor, either stand alone or installed as part of an EFI system. When my tuner pulled the data log on my engine it showed RPM, TPS for load, MAP point, Lambda and more. I was able to look at a Lambda reading that went lean just before it misfired then jump to 1.4 during the misfire event. I also had told him that I had held the RPM to 4000 before shifting, he pointed out that the data showed 4,800. You just can’t fool the ECU.
I would suggest you find a shop with the stand alone Lambda or book some tuning time on a dyno to get the mixture right.
Peter
Peter D.
I am also running wasted spark with the Motec but i have not heard any one commenting on the joy of wasted spark and the two fireing orders that are used on FSB motors.
Peter
I am also running wasted spark with the Motec but i have not heard any one commenting on the joy of wasted spark and the two fireing orders that are used on FSB motors.
Peter
All this technology is a wonderful thing, my MSD 7600 quit after 3 years and I pulled the entire system and sent it back to MSD. They checked and updated the programming and sent it back. I reinstalled it and contacted their tech group to help set it up. The critical thing is setting the cam sync, that is what initiates the firing order every other crank revolution. I attempted to start the thing and all it would do was pop and fart, I must have reset that damn cam synch a dozen times and it was beginning to look like suicide was the only answer!
I called the tech at MSD one more time and when he picked up the phone he immediately apologized to me and said that the cam sync instructions he had been giving me were for a SB chevy(distributor rotates the wrong way! I reset the cam synch one more time and it immediately lit off and life was good!
One note on the plugs, I have used a variety of plugs and wound up with Autolite racing plugs which seemed to work pretty well, they had only been in the car a few thousand miles when I had this problem with the ignition but I took them out to see how they were doing and found that the gap was huge! about .100"! I had been having a problem starting the car and attributed that to the ignition, now I am not so sure. Anyway a $12.00 set of Autolites is in it now, gapped at .035 and it runs fine.
I called the tech at MSD one more time and when he picked up the phone he immediately apologized to me and said that the cam sync instructions he had been giving me were for a SB chevy(distributor rotates the wrong way! I reset the cam synch one more time and it immediately lit off and life was good!
One note on the plugs, I have used a variety of plugs and wound up with Autolite racing plugs which seemed to work pretty well, they had only been in the car a few thousand miles when I had this problem with the ignition but I took them out to see how they were doing and found that the gap was huge! about .100"! I had been having a problem starting the car and attributed that to the ignition, now I am not so sure. Anyway a $12.00 set of Autolites is in it now, gapped at .035 and it runs fine.
Ross,
I have a DC&O inlet manifold the same as yours and experienced the same problem of not getting up to temperature. I tried blocking off the radiator but this did not work because as you stated the problem is caused by too much coolant by-passing the thermostat.
My solution was to fit an in line ball valve to the -6 hose from the rear of the manifold. This allows me to regulate the amount of coolant that flows to the front of the thermostat housing. eg about 3/4 closed in winter, 1/2 closed in summer and fully open if I run on the track.
Since doing this I have had no problems and the engine comes up to temp in about the same time as my other cars.
I have also had a problem with some plugs fouling and others not. The Motec guy up here has dynoed the car and told me it is very difficult to get the fuel map completely correct at road speeds and throttle percentages.
Because of a extremely slight difference in butterfly openings between cylinders at small throttle percentages this is what causes the uneven fouling in my case.
I have a M800 and to rectify this I have been adjusting individual cylinder percentages below 25%tpi and up to about 2250rpm. By perservering with this over time (I'm up to about version 50) I have improved the situation but it is still not yet perfect over all throttle percentages.
I have a DC&O inlet manifold the same as yours and experienced the same problem of not getting up to temperature. I tried blocking off the radiator but this did not work because as you stated the problem is caused by too much coolant by-passing the thermostat.
My solution was to fit an in line ball valve to the -6 hose from the rear of the manifold. This allows me to regulate the amount of coolant that flows to the front of the thermostat housing. eg about 3/4 closed in winter, 1/2 closed in summer and fully open if I run on the track.
Since doing this I have had no problems and the engine comes up to temp in about the same time as my other cars.
I have also had a problem with some plugs fouling and others not. The Motec guy up here has dynoed the car and told me it is very difficult to get the fuel map completely correct at road speeds and throttle percentages.
Because of a extremely slight difference in butterfly openings between cylinders at small throttle percentages this is what causes the uneven fouling in my case.
I have a M800 and to rectify this I have been adjusting individual cylinder percentages below 25%tpi and up to about 2250rpm. By perservering with this over time (I'm up to about version 50) I have improved the situation but it is still not yet perfect over all throttle percentages.
