SL-C recommended engine/transaxle combos

[Ron Earp]

No big deal ?... good - then please tell us how to build a 8500 RPM pushrod V8. Maybe you have some useful "links" to share :thumbsup:

Didn't say it was "no big deal". What I implied was that it is routinely done, and it is.

1. Pick up phone.
2. Call any number of circle track builders here in North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and other states that have a lot of circle track racing. Yates, PME, etc. Or, do it on the cheap and get an ex-Cup motor.
3. Write check.

Folks build some 358 inch roundy round motors to 9k+. Units built for that operation are typically long lived in the 7500-8500 RPM range.

I do realize that is it far more difficult to get these sorts of engines in Europe, but, you guys don't have the roundy round redneck racers like we do thus the demand is far less.

 

[Damian]

Somehow I knew this was going to go this route :laugh: . American muscle VS European finesse. I will state that I am going to use an LS in my build but can anyone give me an example of an American motor that has anywhere near the same power per liter? They (European motors) def. get more with less (NA that is).

 

[Damian]

Now I'm not talking about a custom build because well anything can be made now a days. American muscle is FAR behind the curve in that area.

 

[Ron Earp]

I will state that I am going to use an LS in my build but can anyone give me an example of an American motor that has anywhere near the same power per liter? They (European motors) def. get more with less (NA that is).

Let's see.....

Ford's Coyote. 5L DOHC, specific output on the first version of the engine for passenger car use....414hp. 82hp/L.

Compare with BMW's similar displacement E39 M5 DOHC V8....400 hp at 80hp/L. Or BMW's new DOHC V8 M3 engine at 414 hp (only 4L though) 103hp/L.

Not to shabby for the Ford which costs far less than either of the BMW's. I'll bet the Ford responds quite well to the after market too for far less $$$/hp gain. Cam for a Ford, figure $500. Cams from Dinan or other BMW tuners, big $$$$.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Just got the factory Ford aftermarket Sooper dooper charger for the Coyote we have going into an SLC ....and I have a rather nice old school Nascar engine making 807hp on E85 sitting in a Lola in the showroom...if anyone fancies an 8500rpm pushrod go fast engine...

 

[Ron Earp]

and I have a rather nice old school Nascar engine making 807hp on E85 sitting in a Lola in the showroom...if anyone fancies an 8500rpm pushrod go fast engine...

Unpossible! Can't be done.

Well, maybe only if you're and Italian or German engine designer cause you can't use pushrods. Or as a consumer living in Europe cause pushrod motors are similar to unobtainium. But go to any redneck track in the USA or Australia/NZ (you guys are still doing pushrod motors aren't you?) and it becomes quite possible. With some pretty damn high hp/L figures.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Thats with the small camshaft too...put the manly one in and its about 75hp more...

 

[Damian]

I am not going to dispute the cost to play are different but everything posted reaffirms that the European offerings are more efficient. The Ford #'s I agree are good BUT NOT AS GOOD which again proves my point. All I am saying is that they shouldn't be so readily dismissed.

 

[Tom]

we all recognize different strokes for different folks. But -

most people aren't racing, so we don't have displacement limits. We can get equal or better power, same overall package size (or smaller), and better fuel efficiency (don't have to run huge valve overlap), as well as greater cost efficiency, by running mass produced push rod motors.

But I'd certainly love to see a SLC/whatever running a BMW V8, Maserati V8 etc. More choices makes for better bench racing!

 

[Graham]

Guys,

We all have pride in the engines that we produce (US / European / Far East)...

Whilst there may be (roughly) a commonality between HP and different parts of the world, there can be no dispute as to the relative difference in engine efficiency...

This will always be won by the Europeans and Far East. it is a given, simply because of the price of fuel, and the cost of materials. For many years the US has been shielded (comparatively) from the costs that most of the rest of the world have to pay for these things.

There is also a beauty in technology.

I drive a 911 Turbo (I can hear you all spitting at me now), but find me a car that puts out 480 BHP all day long, and returns 30 MPG on a run, and 20 MPG around town, whilst being more reliable than any other car I've ever owned....

That is the beauty of European engineering...

(just fighting our corner )

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

Somehow I knew this was going to go this route :laugh: . American muscle VS European finesse. I will state that I am going to use an LS in my build but can anyone give me an example of an American motor that has anywhere near the same power per liter? They (European motors) def. get more with less (NA that is).

Power per liter is the lamest standard to compare any engine other than an engine that is run in a race class that limits displacement and is being compared to other engines with the same displacement.

Power per liter and HP is just math. Spin it high enough long enough with stable valve train and your horsepower is high. Not much can top a F1 engine for power per liter, but it would work pretty crappy in a SLC or any other street car with all of it's ~200 ft lbs of torque.

The power per liter argument is bogus for a street driven engine that isn't constrained by space limitations, or displacement rules for a racing series.

All things being equal (properly built/spec'd), the big engine wins. Period. We can get into things like gearing, power band length, etc, but guess what, the bigger engine will win when it's spec'd, geared, and tired properly for the track.

That's why they keep putting more restrictors and weight penalties to the Corvette in the WC series. That piece of crap dinosaur push rod v8 kicks the snot out of those heavy complicated OHC euro motors... At least these days.


All of the above written with much love for the slick motors though.


***Sorry if the above sounded aggressive. It was written with a smile on my face. When I left and came back to read it again, it sounds a little harsh.

 

[Mesa]

Just got the factory Ford aftermarket Sooper dooper charger for the Coyote we have going into an SLC ....and I have a rather nice old school Nascar engine making 807hp on E85 sitting in a Lola in the showroom...if anyone fancies an 8500rpm pushrod go fast engine...

Nice! A coyote in an slc. Had this engine been around when I bought I would have had that instead of the LS7 I am forced to live with now (all my friends bleed blue). I like the idea of 4 cams...but don't understand why a US made 4 cam motor will not rev higher than a pushrod motor (?) Plus that sweet looking 4 cam head don't need to hide under plastic valve covers. Yes the LS makes more power but if it was ONLY about power then we would all have Alex's monster motor in our cars.

 

[Damian]

Talk about contradictions "All things being equal (properly built/spec'd), the big engine wins. Period. We can get into things like gearing, power band length, etc, but guess what, the bigger engine will win when it's spec'd, geared, and tired properly for the track." How is ANYTHING EQUAL if one has more cubes / liters? That alone makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Then there is this little gem "
That's why they keep putting more restricters and weight penalties to the Corvette in the WC series. That piece of crap dinosaur push rod v8 kicks the snot out of those heavy complicated OHC euro motors... At least these days." Last race I watched the NEW M3 WON IT'S CLASS (and is currently in the points lead. Go Turner. Oh and we all know that a racing series has more to do with the support team, not the motor)!!!!

Or how about this "The power per liter argument is bogus for a street driven engine that isn't constrained by space limitations, or displacement rules for a racing series." You do realize that we are talking about the SL-C right? It's not like ANY MOTOR is going to slip in without modification (remember Fran had said that a VIPER MOTOR would have issue fitting if at all). Now the SL-C is not a go to church on Sunday and than shopping kind of car and while I understand your comment it is irrelevant to THIS car. Space is NOT unlimited and weight is where the main issues arise.

I could go on and on and this argument has been going on probably longer than any member on here has been alive and it's not going to be settled here but can't we all agree that they have their place right next to ANY AMERICAN lump. If I were in Europe I would def. be using a BMW motor but here in the states the price point just makes it unreasonable.

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

No big deal ?... good - then please tell us how to build a 8500 RPM pushrod V8. Maybe you have some useful "links" to share :thumbsup:

Ok I will bite:

Probably the largest hurdle in doing this is deciding which stand alone you would run as the OEM LS computers are currently only good til 8k until someone cracks the code to allow tuning past 8k rpm.

As far as mechanically, I will say it's no big deal parts wise. However finding the correct engine builder (which would apply to any motor living under race conditions) is a must.

I'm assuming 8500rpm as a reline and the motor peaking at ~7500rpm.

Nothing about a race engine is "no big deal" regardless of platform. But Ron Earp is right, a 8500rpm LS not rocket science and there are many examples of them in the US from Grass Roots street racers, to the Nascar Cup series.

Solid Roller, shorter stroke and/or CCW Billet Crank, proper intake, proper heads...etc.

Today's tight lash solid roller setups live many, many miles under street conditions with only yearly lash check ups necessary (and most times it's just for checking and no adjustments are needed). Technology has come a long way on these "should have been scrapped" pushrod engines.

For a mainly street driven naturally aspirated motor, nothing touches the LS engine platform.

I'm anxious to see what the new Coyote platform does in the future, but the LS is still top dog.

 

[Damian]

Mesa I agree with what you posted. It really does come down to ones personal preference.

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

Talk about contradictions "All things being equal (properly built/spec'd), the big engine wins. Period. We can get into things like gearing, power band length, etc, but guess what, the bigger engine will win when it's spec'd, geared, and tired properly for the track." How is ANYTHING EQUAL if one has more cubes / liters? That alone makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Then there is this little gem "
That's why they keep putting more restricters and weight penalties to the Corvette in the WC series. That piece of crap dinosaur push rod v8 kicks the snot out of those heavy complicated OHC euro motors... At least these days." Last race I watched the NEW M3 WON IT'S CLASS (and is currently in the points lead. Go Turner. Oh and we all know that a racing series has more to do with the support team, not the motor)!!!!

Or how about this "The power per liter argument is bogus for a street driven engine that isn't constrained by space limitations, or displacement rules for a racing series." You do realize that we are talking about the SL-C right? It's not like ANY MOTOR is going to slip in without modification (remember Fran had said that a VIPER MOTOR would have issue fitting if at all). Now the SL-C is not a go to church on Sunday and than shopping kind of car and while I understand your comment it is irrelevant to THIS car. Space is NOT unlimited and weight is where the main issues arise.

I could go on and on and this argument has been going on probably longer than any member on here has been alive and it's not going to be settled here but can't we all agree that they have their place right next to ANY AMERICAN lump. If I were in Europe I would def. be using a BMW motor but here in the states the price point just makes it unreasonable.

Ok, I freely admit I haven't kept up week to week with WC. I'm very happy the BMW won. Congrats. It doesn't change the argument about HP per liter.

Naturally aspirated, the LS platform kicks the Viper's but too. I see in my passionate hasted I wasn't clear when I said "the bigger engine wins" in a race even with less "hp per liter".

I was talking about the same platform, not dissimilar platforms. The reason I made that assumption is that this argument goes on in the LS world too. HP per cube is how they reference it though.

Sorry for my hasty unclear response.

My point is still the same, HP per liter is a bogus measuring stick unless rules dictate a size restriction.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

... HP per liter is a bogus measuring stick....

Let's not be quite so absolutist. No measuring stick is bogus in absolute terms; each one's value is determined by the individual's perspective and goals. From an engineering challenge or expertise point of view power/displacement is an interesting measure.

As end-users we tend to be interested more directly in power/cost, power/mass, maintainence cost/operating time, along with a series of intangibles/unmeasurables such as sound quality, design esthetic, maintainability. Until we all agree on a weighted set of measurements we're never going to agree on a single metric.

 

[Alex]

So, what we've concluded so far is:

- If it's not an LS engine it's wrong

- If it's not at least 500cid it's wrong

Okay, carry on then

 

[Dave]

In the end, all that matters are lap times given the same platform. How many cubes, hp/liter, hp/$, east/west/european, pushrod/ohc/rotary or any other lame never ending points of debate are irrelevant. There is more than one way (i.e. engine choice) to get the fastest lap and he with the most power (bragging rights only) is not guaranteed any FTD's.

 

[Doc Kaler]

+1 Dave....