So sad.

[Keith]

I am mindful that the typical selection criteria for spies or 'sleepers' is that they be 'grey' or in this case 'mild.'

These people will not be easy to spot, even by their friends and, it seems, even by their own families (Paris, San Bernadino) if they are to be believed..

What a mess..

 

[Larry L.]

I have no words really except we must put out heads down and find solutions which stop short of stripping ourselves of our humanity.

Oh, I HAVE ONE that will instantly combat/address/counter the mass shootings that occur in "soft targets" the instant some loon cuts loose (...and I can name those here who will I-M-M-E-D-I-A-T-E-L-Y oppose/pooh-pooh it, too...and tell you why): Allow all law-abiding, legal CITIZENS of the country who want to "carry" the option to do so - anywhere...especially those with "concealed carry" permits...but, it should apply to those who would prefer to "open carry" as well. No more "gun-FREE zones" for law-abiding people. None. Zero. (The above will do nothing for those of you who live in "gun-FREE" countries. Obviously you have your work cut out for you.)

Now, I K-N-O-W all the knee-jerk, oh-so-"p.c." objections to doing the above. So, y'all who want to spew them can spare me/us...especially given the fact that we're NOT allowing law-abiding people to "carry" everywhere now and people are starting to die like flies in part BECAUSE we aren't. There's no denying that no matter how hard one might try to spin reality.

Might there be "collateral damage" if we go that route? Possibly. But, how many MORE are actually dying right now?

Lemme give y'all a tongue-in-cheek 'visual' to help illustrate the logic involved in the above 'solution' :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsVCHE7ayPE

 

[Jeff Young]

And....of the deep end we go.

 

[Larry L.]

And....of the deep end we go.

'Not taking the bait, Jeff...except to inquire: What's your 'solution'?

 

[Keith]

I'd love to believe what you're saying would make a real difference Larry but I just can't see it. Heck, if I really thought arming the citizens of this country would solve a potential terrorist crisis and be the first in the queue for a Luger (I always wanted one). You are suggesting that people attend a Christmas party all tooled up with weapons or that someone is mounting an armed guard all the time everywhere watching out for such a possibility. What sort of life would that be?

Hand on heart can you please tell me that this tragedy would have been prevented if some of the guests at this community Christmas party had been carrying? You cannot ignore the advantage of surprise which would negate any successful defence scenario I can think of..

If it makes you feel any better, over 175,000 background checks were made for gun sales on Black Friday, and, Holy Moly! 21 million background checks for gun sales were made last year but only 1.1% were rejected.

 

[Larry L.]

So, we simply surrender w/o putting up a fight.

Yeah...that'll work much better.

 

[Larry L.]

The problem is, even if we brought mass shootings to a complete stop, terrorists would still have the bomb/rockets/mortars-from-afar option...and bio/dirty bomb options as well. THERE only intel/surveillance, etc., is going to have any chance of heading such things off.

I'm all for targeting terrorists' economic supply line(s) and using black ops to target not only terrorists and terrorist leadership, but those who enable/support them as well...no matter WHO that may be.

 

[Jeff Young]

'Not taking the bait, Jeff...except to inquire: What's your 'solution'?

We've had 355 mass shootings in the US in the last year. Ausralia? something like 8 in the last 15 years. Britain? Same. France? Same.

I'm generally for people having a right to own whatever gun they want responsibly. Although I'm about at my limit there and just about ready to say screw it, this is madness, take them all.

But that said, I'm convinced the solution is most assuredly NOT more guns. How many more would have been injured by a fire fight IN the social services center in California? Or the PP clinic in Colorado?

The answer simply can't be "more guns." Keith is right. What kind of life would it be to walk around armed all the time -- to go to dinner, to parties, to a movie, to the mall -- for fear of a mass shooter?

That's not how I want to live. And most of the rest of the Western world DOESN'T live that way.

 

[Larry L.]

So, your solution/proposal is the 'head-in-sand' option.

"We've had 355 mass shootings in the US in the last year." - source?

"How many more would have been injured by a fire fight IN the social services center in California? Or the PP clinic in Colorado?" You need to REVERSE that question, don't you? How many FEWER might there have been had there been return fire. We KNOW how many died/were wounded when the shooters went unopposed. Logic dictates the total casualties would likely have been less if the perps had had to defend themselves or had been gunned down themselves.

 

[Keith]

So, we simply surrender w/o putting up a fight.

Yeah...that'll work much better.

Not at all, I think we should leave it to those trained and equipped to deal with it. I cannot imagine the confusion caused by armed civilians running around in a Paris style scenario. It would most likely result in many Blue on Blue outcomes with all the tragic consequences. We fight, but not by changing the way we have chosen (and fought & died for) to live, we fight to maintain our way of life. THAT is their target and the moment we fundamentally change our lifestyle or lose our humanity - is a victory for terrorism.

I would venture to add - they may not always wear black or camo outfits. One armed terrorist may just appear to look the same as concerned gun carrying citizen Joe Soap, or would you aim to just shoot every person with a darker pallor just in case?

When I served in a war zone I was lucky. The 'enemy' was clearly different from us, but they weren't different from the general population. Anyone who served in Vietnam will also know that very well.

 

[Jeff Young]

Sources:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-is-the-second-today-and-the-355th-this-year/

Here's a map of all the mass shootings in 2015 | PBS NewsHour

There have been more mass shootings in the US than days this year | Americas | News | The Independent

Standard is 4.

And yes I'm aware that right wing nut job sites disagree. I'll stand by the sources posted above.

 

[Larry L.]

"Those trained and equipped to deal with it" arrive AFTER the perps have done their dirty deed and flown the coupe, Keith.

 

[Larry L.]

And yes I'm aware that right wing nut job sites disagree. I'll stand by the sources posted above.

Then there's not much point in rebutting the stats, is there...

 

[Keith]

Hey people, I do find this subject valid for discussion but please lets not turn this into a political diatribe again.

The fact is there are over 300 million guns in the US it hasn't and won't stop domestic terrorism.

This is time for unity, not dissent.

 

[Keith]

"Those trained and equipped to deal with it" arrive AFTER the perps have done their dirty deed and flown the coupe.

That's true in part, but the Police did engage and shoot most of the perpetrators at the Bacalan.

I think the world is on a completely different footing now but again, with 2 or 3 gunmen with automatic AK47's spraying a dark auditorium from a balcony, it would take Dirty Harry himself with a .44 Magnum and Infra Red vision to have any chance against that attack.

I still cannot see how an "armed citizen" would not become collateral damage in that situation. (sorry for the double negative tut tut)

 

[Jeff Young]

I agree completely. I just don't see how the average Joe with a pistol is going to deal with that kind of situation, other than to make it worse in most cases.

 

[Larry L.]

Only one individual I'm aware of has brought politics into it...something about "right wing nut jobs" as I recall...

I'll be 10-7 and QSY to my easy chair...:shifty:

G'night.

 

[Jeff Young]

Then there's not much point in rebutting the stats, is there...

One thing we must get away from in the US is the idea that there are "right wing" and "left wing" facts. Those numbers above are from reputable news sources -- PBS, the Post and the Independent and based on FBI data. I'm sorry but Infowars and other places don't have the "real story."

The numbers are the numbers and they are not good.

 

[Jeff Young]

Only one individual I'm aware of has brought politics into it...something about "right wing nut jobs" as I recall...

I'll be 10-7 and QSY to my easy chair...:shifty:

G'night.

That's all a matter of perspective. I viewed your post on arming everyone and eliminating gun free zones to be highly political.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I find it interesting that all American news sources are calling the scene of the tragedy a
"Holiday Party" I suspect it was a Christmas party and what better motive for a terrorist than to annihilate those celebrating Christmas?
I am beginning to dislike political correctness with a passion.
Those same news services and also the President are still saying they are not sure of the motive, despite the evidence found in the shooters house. None so blind as those who do not want to see.