good point
SPF v. CAV
- Thread starter Hoota Caroota
- Start date
Great posts everyone. Rod I have the CAV built BDR GT. CAV build # 153 & BDR GT # 3. I worked with Jay (cashburn) www.Vintagemotorsports.com & Reg with great support through the whole process. The newer cars (100 & up) from Auto Futura have all the upgrades standard . The BDR GT comes standard w/wide hip,17" wheels, body & rocker stripes & a few other goodies. I looked @ SPF (nice,very original) you have to pop the wheel off to get in? Looked @ a kit (forget it no comparison). The BDR/CAV fit & finish is top notch,the doors close like a modern car & the interior is leather & plush,the A/C works & it's an awesome drive. Handles like it's on rails & stops on a dime! Anyway they are both great cars so you have to see what's best for you. If you go to the build forum my build is BDR GT #153 or check Jay's site (lots of pictures). Oh yeah I only checked one engine builder (Jack Roush). Good luck & have fun !
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:Just in case you missed it there is a really nice SPF MKII for sale at $75K. Hell of a price. I'm at $100k and I'm doing the install.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-cars-sale/28868-superformance-2174-sale.html
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-cars-sale/28868-superformance-2174-sale.html
Rod , I was the first BDR/GT buyer but since then I think they have sold 4 or 5 others. I not sure why but the other owners don't seem to post here ? I did speak to a few of them personaly when they had questions & were making the decision for the BDR / GT. This forum is a great site & source of information but that being said I think it is bit more geared to the kit builder do it yourself crowd ? This is great thread & you are getting lots of good points all around about the SPF & CAV / BDR GT's. You should talk to Jay @ Vintage , they are good guys and he knows all about the GT. I think he also may have a complete roller in stock :idea:
John, any reason you're not looking at RCR, I have an SPF and love it but it would be nice if the builder was a little closer to home.
I’m not sure about the other builders but SPF has always been a little short on documentation. Almost everything I've learned about my car I've learned from the people on this forum like Lynn Miner or by taking my car apart. Pretty much the rear suspension is the only thing I haven't had apart.
My SPF dealer has never been of much use but SPF did step up big time to get a replacement set of headers (car mistakenly came with 351 style) in a timely manner, thanks Barry. If you buy a new SPF and you’re not going to do the install yourself I wouldn’t mess around I would just have Dennis Olthoff do it.
As my goal has always been to build a road car (some track) I've spent many, many hours making the car more road friendly (water, heat and sound control, sorry no cup holders) but you have to decide what kind of car makes sense for YOUR needs and abilities. Whatever car you pick you will have to be willing to fix issues that come up. I'm not just talking about things that break but those aspects of the car that bug you to the point you want them fixed.
Drive and ride in as many cars as people will let you. If you’re serious and respectful most people will be more than willing to share both their knowledge and their cars (only if the car was for sale would I expect them to let you drive one).
Strange that the primary reason I bought the SPF was I didn’t want to spend years building a “KIT” car yet I’ve spent hundreds of hours making my car the way I would have built it had I gotten a KIT. Don't get me wrong I would buy that same car again in a heartbeat.
Sorry for the long post but I think you'll understand my point.
Remember to enjoy the journey because only when you’re driving your GT40 is it quick.
I’m not sure about the other builders but SPF has always been a little short on documentation. Almost everything I've learned about my car I've learned from the people on this forum like Lynn Miner or by taking my car apart. Pretty much the rear suspension is the only thing I haven't had apart.
My SPF dealer has never been of much use but SPF did step up big time to get a replacement set of headers (car mistakenly came with 351 style) in a timely manner, thanks Barry. If you buy a new SPF and you’re not going to do the install yourself I wouldn’t mess around I would just have Dennis Olthoff do it.
As my goal has always been to build a road car (some track) I've spent many, many hours making the car more road friendly (water, heat and sound control, sorry no cup holders) but you have to decide what kind of car makes sense for YOUR needs and abilities. Whatever car you pick you will have to be willing to fix issues that come up. I'm not just talking about things that break but those aspects of the car that bug you to the point you want them fixed.
Drive and ride in as many cars as people will let you. If you’re serious and respectful most people will be more than willing to share both their knowledge and their cars (only if the car was for sale would I expect them to let you drive one).
Strange that the primary reason I bought the SPF was I didn’t want to spend years building a “KIT” car yet I’ve spent hundreds of hours making my car the way I would have built it had I gotten a KIT. Don't get me wrong I would buy that same car again in a heartbeat.
Sorry for the long post but I think you'll understand my point.
Remember to enjoy the journey because only when you’re driving your GT40 is it quick.
I have a completely built and sorted out RCR for sale here on the forum. So with that said, you know my biases. I am 6'2 and I fit in my car very well. It wasn't the head room in the SPF that made it tight but the dash. It seemed to set lower in the car. I could not drive it comfortably even with the seat cushions out. You really need to sit in the cars and see how they feel. As for the suspension, the suspension on the RCR is totally adjustable and I have posted my bump steer numbers as well as the spring/wheel rates, corner weights, alignment specs etc.. If I were shopping, I would like to see those numbers on the CAV and SPF before I bought one. I have sat in a few originals and there are not many replicas that have "correct" interiors. No offense intended but these cars were pretty raw. A lot of the cars that claim to be more original just aren't but they are much nicer! When it comes to drive train, go with the ZF gear box. I think mine shifts great, albeit different than a TKO 600. And finally don't pay a lot for an expensive set of valve covers. Get a guy to build you what you want. Talk to someone like Keith Craft about a custom build for your project.
The disclaimer - this is just one opinion from a guy that hasn't driven a CAV or an SPF but loves his RCR (American made!:thumbsup
.
The disclaimer - this is just one opinion from a guy that hasn't driven a CAV or an SPF but loves his RCR (American made!:thumbsup
.
Rod,
From what you want in a GT40, or a CAV, or one of the other copies, you may want to buy a Ford GT. Sure it cost more, but it doesn't leak in the rain, has way more to offer in creature comforts, ABS brakes, newer steering/suspension package, and a tamed exhaust system. I see your from California so you wouldn't have to put with getting past the CARB and obtaining a tag to drive one of the GT40-P-xxxx, or CAV.
I don't remember reading or hearing reports of the first GT40s from their drivers about getting wet....it is a race car. The car I have is a continuation of that race car. The 427 FE in that car is loud and produces large amounts heat. It handles like a race car that was adapted for the roads or track. I had no misconceptions of what it was when I bought the car. My wife will ride in the car. (I cheat and use A/C).
My roof is made of steel, as were the first cars. The ZF has never been a transmission to 'speed shift'...you do that often and you'll be repairing something expensive (ie Pantera). If I have any problem I call and get an answer
or SPF will send a truck if needed. Great support and I support the dealer. The group of owners I know are car guys who car turn a wrench or appreciated the work of the people who know race cars. Oh get a Gurney bubble if you plan to track the car...the helmet hits the inside roof if you don't.
I guess it depends on what you want to do with the car--cruise up the Pacific coast highway, Blue Ridge Parkway, or blast down the track at VIR, Charlotte, Nurburgring, or your local road track. Then buy what your dreaming about...we never really own its soul but for a fleeting moment before the car passes to the next dreamer.
I let people drive my cars...but the GT40 is different. You can hit 113 going 2- to 3rd why merging. The rear view isn't. I go with them to make sure the big grin doesn't cause them to make a mistake. If your in this end of the country, call me and we will go for a drive. All of my cars leave people smiling.
Good luck making you choice
Grady, thank you for your thoughts and offer of a ride, but I live on he West Coast.
The Ford GT is a very nice car, but for several reasons it's not the type of car that I'm really looking for. As for raw, the Cobra is quite raw and I really, really enjoy it a lot. My only misgiving about it is that I didn't buy and build it sooner.
I'm not worried at all about the CA SB100 registration process. It's really quite simple and easy, only requiring a little time here or there to visit the DMV, CHP and BAR. Been there, done that and got a t-shirt. I think they even still have left over exemptions from the 2009 allotment of 500.
I'm speaking with quite a few people, and all the cars have pluses and minuses. There are several cars both completed and rollers that are available, as well as ordering one, and I'm considering all of them without eliminating any of them.
Dean, your RCR is gorgeous too. I usually throw out virtually all of my magazines after reading them and I still have a couple of the Kit Car magazines that featured your RCR. I'm not sure about buying an already built car, since I do enjoy the build process. Also, your car may be "geared" more toward the track than what I would like. As I mentioned, RCR is still one of my top choices, but the RCR's lack of "homogeneous-ness" is a small issue for me.
The Ford GT is a very nice car, but for several reasons it's not the type of car that I'm really looking for. As for raw, the Cobra is quite raw and I really, really enjoy it a lot. My only misgiving about it is that I didn't buy and build it sooner.
I'm not worried at all about the CA SB100 registration process. It's really quite simple and easy, only requiring a little time here or there to visit the DMV, CHP and BAR. Been there, done that and got a t-shirt. I think they even still have left over exemptions from the 2009 allotment of 500.
I'm speaking with quite a few people, and all the cars have pluses and minuses. There are several cars both completed and rollers that are available, as well as ordering one, and I'm considering all of them without eliminating any of them.
Dean, your RCR is gorgeous too. I usually throw out virtually all of my magazines after reading them and I still have a couple of the Kit Car magazines that featured your RCR. I'm not sure about buying an already built car, since I do enjoy the build process. Also, your car may be "geared" more toward the track than what I would like. As I mentioned, RCR is still one of my top choices, but the RCR's lack of "homogeneous-ness" is a small issue for me.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Rod,
I have greatly enjoyed this thread you started!
I also live in the Bay Area, (Saratoga). I have a newer SPF Mk1 (P2264), with a small block 302 based Roush 342R and a RBT ZF.
MY owner experiance has been wonderful, I picked up the car last October and have just gone over 5,000 miles, so as you can see I drive it when ever I can.
If you want, we should get together and I'll show you around my baby. Maybe even let you try her out If you appear sane.
Only yesterday my wife drove the 40 for the first time, she really enjoyed it and did very well. Other than everything feeling somewhat heavy (wheel, breaks and shift) she liked better than her Cayman.
You will also find that the small block is smaller, lighter, puts out much less heat, does not intrude into he rear vision at all and still puts out 450 hp.
I have greatly enjoyed this thread you started!
I also live in the Bay Area, (Saratoga). I have a newer SPF Mk1 (P2264), with a small block 302 based Roush 342R and a RBT ZF.
MY owner experiance has been wonderful, I picked up the car last October and have just gone over 5,000 miles, so as you can see I drive it when ever I can.
If you want, we should get together and I'll show you around my baby. Maybe even let you try her out If you appear sane.
Only yesterday my wife drove the 40 for the first time, she really enjoyed it and did very well. Other than everything feeling somewhat heavy (wheel, breaks and shift) she liked better than her Cayman.
You will also find that the small block is smaller, lighter, puts out much less heat, does not intrude into he rear vision at all and still puts out 450 hp.
Rod, you make some good points. I always enjoy the build more than the finished product. I would like to say that my car is very streetable. It will run all day at 2200 rpms with the A/C blowing right down the highway and is very well insulatated and sealed up. You can have it both ways (track and street) with a GT40 if you look around and do your research. I have never driven a car that is as well mannered on the track as a GT40 and all are probably a little loud and rough riding on the street. Where ever you land on your research, you will be amazed at how well these cars handle.
Dean, I actually made an attempt at buying your FIA a few years back. I have always kicked myself for missing out on that one. IMHO, your builds are legendary. Notwithstanding my earlier lack of judgement, I'm extremely happy with my KMP.
Yes, I do enjoy thinking, planning and the build process, to a certain extent, though what I would call the "abridged version", not what most RCR owners work through.
Jim, do you ever make it out to the Cobra Club breakfasts at Alice's or Baji's? I try to make them with my KMP. Would love to see your SPF there sometime. I assume when you say "small block" that you're referring to a 302-based 8.2" deck height block as compared with the 9.5" 351W-based block? I haven't made any decisions yet, obviously, but I would probably lean towards the "smaller small block", maybe one with a 3.25" stroke, but of course, all in due time. I'm flexible.
As for my sanity, nope, lost that a long time ago. :laugh:
No really, I would be happy and excited just to have a ride in the passenger seat. I've had a family member ask me if they could drive my Kirkham. After looking at them with my head tilted in disbelief wearing two jaudice eyes, I said "You want me, to let you drive my short wheel base Cobra that weighs 2128 lbs and has a 605 HP engine?" I might as well give them a gun and let them shoot themselves, it would be quicker. :laugh: :shocked:
Back to the CAV/BDR versus SPF. Do the dual nostrils look any different on each car? Does the CAV's dual nostrils look slightly larger, maybe for better cooling?
Yes, I do enjoy thinking, planning and the build process, to a certain extent, though what I would call the "abridged version", not what most RCR owners work through.
Jim, do you ever make it out to the Cobra Club breakfasts at Alice's or Baji's? I try to make them with my KMP. Would love to see your SPF there sometime. I assume when you say "small block" that you're referring to a 302-based 8.2" deck height block as compared with the 9.5" 351W-based block? I haven't made any decisions yet, obviously, but I would probably lean towards the "smaller small block", maybe one with a 3.25" stroke, but of course, all in due time. I'm flexible.
As for my sanity, nope, lost that a long time ago. :laugh:
No really, I would be happy and excited just to have a ride in the passenger seat. I've had a family member ask me if they could drive my Kirkham. After looking at them with my head tilted in disbelief wearing two jaudice eyes, I said "You want me, to let you drive my short wheel base Cobra that weighs 2128 lbs and has a 605 HP engine?" I might as well give them a gun and let them shoot themselves, it would be quicker. :laugh: :shocked:
Back to the CAV/BDR versus SPF. Do the dual nostrils look any different on each car? Does the CAV's dual nostrils look slightly larger, maybe for better cooling?
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Rod,
Yes, my motor is the 302 based 8.2 deck height small block. Lighter, cooler & quieter.
When you say Alice's for breakfast I'm assuming you mean Alices on Skyline Blvd above Woodside. I actually live on Skyline a few miles south of there. When to the cobra people go there? I'll make it for sure.
Yes, my motor is the 302 based 8.2 deck height small block. Lighter, cooler & quieter.
When you say Alice's for breakfast I'm assuming you mean Alices on Skyline Blvd above Woodside. I actually live on Skyline a few miles south of there. When to the cobra people go there? I'll make it for sure.
Lighter, cooler, quieter...That sounds good to me.
During the Summer it varies from 1-3 Saturdays per month. We switch off from Alice's in Woodside to Baji's in Mountain View. There's a large contingent that makes it way from the South Bay and Santa Cruz via Hwy 9. One Cobra owner, Dave Brown, brings his blue Kirkham from Saratoga.
Watch www.clubcobra.com for updates under the "Bay Area Cobra Club" forum.
Jim, last Saturday, some of our normal group went on a Wine Tour in Sonoma & Napa, and then a portion of our group went to a Tank Tour in Portola Valley.
Tank Farm Photos - Club Cobra
Tank Farm Photos - Club Cobra
It's been real interesting, no - refreshing to see how this thread has progressed. Lot's of great information and supporters of all sides. Although the SPF and CAV cars are not interchangable the grin factor for the owners and admirers alike is.
About the body shapes, there's a lot of evolution, interpretation, generation loss, team and specifcation influences going on so there are a lot of variables. It's been said before, by myself and others, that most of the replica GT40 bodies have lineage back to the KVA. The SPF and RCR may be the only replicas manufactured today that do not have that connection, no matter how cloaked. However you'd be hard pressed to find two original Ford GT40s with identical bodies. So it comes down to what the mold was pulled from.
From a styling point of view it's a personal thing. The earliest RCR rear clip looked a bit flat in comparison to the KVA shape although both were pulled from original cars. Now RCR offers a curvey narrow tail. Personally the early narrow tail with four tailights would be great on a car with wire wheels... But the market wants curvey Mk1 cars and the market is always right.
So shapes have been fudged to accomodate bigger tires, ease of manufacture, more interior volume, manufacturers prefference or diliberate change for brand identity. Whatever, buy what you like, that's what right for you.
While we're admitting biases here, there just isn't a better looking two seat coupe anywhere anytime.
Cheers
About the body shapes, there's a lot of evolution, interpretation, generation loss, team and specifcation influences going on so there are a lot of variables. It's been said before, by myself and others, that most of the replica GT40 bodies have lineage back to the KVA. The SPF and RCR may be the only replicas manufactured today that do not have that connection, no matter how cloaked. However you'd be hard pressed to find two original Ford GT40s with identical bodies. So it comes down to what the mold was pulled from.
From a styling point of view it's a personal thing. The earliest RCR rear clip looked a bit flat in comparison to the KVA shape although both were pulled from original cars. Now RCR offers a curvey narrow tail. Personally the early narrow tail with four tailights would be great on a car with wire wheels... But the market wants curvey Mk1 cars and the market is always right.
So shapes have been fudged to accomodate bigger tires, ease of manufacture, more interior volume, manufacturers prefference or diliberate change for brand identity. Whatever, buy what you like, that's what right for you.
While we're admitting biases here, there just isn't a better looking two seat coupe anywhere anytime.
Cheers
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