This News is Depressing...

[Jim Craik]

So Al you are very concerned about spending more than they have. You seem to think that its Democrates that do this.

Where does your state rank?

The people in some States are having a real problem with their credit and spending, using too much of the credit available to them.
The credit utilization ratio is a measure of total revolving credit balance divided by your total revolving credit limits.

This data is from the Experian-Oliver Wyman Market Intelligence Reports and Experian’s IntelliView tool to examine which parts of the U.S. are closest to their credit limits. We took the average bankcard balance per consumer in each state and divided it by the average bankcard limit in each state for the first quarter of 2013, the most recent data available. To be fair, these states aren’t 100% maxed out on their credit cards, but they have much higher debt ratios than the other states.

Say Al, see if you can figure out what these States have in common.

10 Louisiana
9 Texas
8 South Carolina
7 Oklahoma
6 Arkansas
5 Nevada
4 Alabama
3 Georgia
2 Mississippi
1 Alaska

Most Red States Take More Money From Washington Than They Put In

Even as Republicans gripe about deficit spending, their states get 30 cents more federal spending per tax dollar than their Democratic neighbors.

 

[Mark]

As I recall, it was right around 1965 that Amarica discovered VW, Toyota, Datsun, Honda.......

So the solution, with hindsight, would have been to wall yourselves in?

I believe many a foreign car maker has and has had, plants in the US Jim.

 

[Jim Craik]

So the solution, with hindsight, would have been to wall yourselves in?

I believe many a foreign car maker has and has had, plants in the US Jim.

Yes they do, but not in Detroit.

 

[Mark]

Exactly, the workforce follows where the business is to be had and this means, where it is to be had profitably. Why does anyone think that because an area was rich and busy in one period, it should, or could possbly remain there forever?

Detroit is no different to the old Gold Rush communitoes of the past. The failing is in not recognising this simple fact and borrowing exponentially to attempt to prop it up, when it is clearly 'game over'.

Ergo, we have too much debt and bugger-all to show for it!

Life is fluid. Move in, make loads of cash, then bugger off and do it again soemwhere else. Simples.

 

[Keith]

Jeff. you're right, the UK lags behind those countries you mentioned because our system basically mimics the American model or it may even be the other way around. The swedes, for example can pretty much afford to do what they want having exploited the fiscal benefits of neutrality for the past 150 years whilst German economics were pretty much underpinned by America bucks.

Can't get all those reparations unless they're making money right?

Likewise the Dutch, small country but with very focused industrial/commercial policy.

And, they all share a common theme, however they came to be where there are. (Bear with me, it's only an opinion - I'm a big picture concept kind of guy and my eyes glaze over when faced with statistics upon statistics).

They are all pretty much Social Democrats in flavour which means a left leaning structure (not leaping, note). They all took decisions to raise taxes for healthcare and made difficult decisions when they needed to which means, not BIG Govt necessarily, but not massive society either. In our political 'system' which despite the presence of the Liberal Democrats largely echoes the US 2 party system except for one vital area. Our elected Govts can stay in power a lot longer and thus, get longer to create/destroy/bugger up.

In a nutshell, compromise and backing down from dogmatic hopeless and outmoded positions is the only way forward to seek a consensus.

That's why I am difficult to pin down politically. You can have the best of both systems working together for the benefit of all, if only many people would climb out of their trenches and shake hands on Christmas Eve.

And the only thing wrong with that was they all got back in to them again for another 4 long bloody years and then 6 more bloody years when they had the answer in the palms of their hand Christmas Eve 1914.

It is of course, a metaphor, but one I really like.

 

[Mark]

Well said.

 

[Jeff Young]

Agreed.

 

[Howard Jones]

The graph IS the story. Once all the makers leave the takers are all that left with nothing left to take. Lets all get behind the immigration bill and welcome another 20 million takers to the party........

 

[Keith]

That's dogma and 'party line' speculation.

Ok, so welcome to another 50 glorious years of hung politics.

Its got to change other wise we'll all have Chicagos in our back yard.

I would be so annoyed - it's like a wart on the landscape - a genital one at that. Every promise a politician makes in the future regarding 'community' 'growth' 'wealth' & 'security' - just hold up pictures of Chicago and ask him to fix all that first.

Tammany Hall.

 

[Larry L.]

Yes. You are a hater. You make everything partisan and everything that goes wrong in the country regardless of actual fault you blame on the other side. And in doing so, you miss out completely on what is really going on.

Read any news article today about the causes of Detroit's failure and it's job loss, car companies leaving, suburb flight (experienced by every city regardless of its leadership) and, yes weather. Detroit was attractive in 1950 despite the terrible weather. Detroit and other rust belt cities, once the promise of jobs was gone, lost population to folks moving south and south west.

This is basic stuff.

You'd just rather screech about "Because Democrat!"

Sad.

One last point Larry: if you think getting your news from "www.freedomoutpost.com" (Don't Tread on Me!) makes you an informed citizen, then you haven't learned much in your years on this planet. Again, a shame. Truly a shame.

Like I said, Mr. Young, anyone who has a view of 'cause and effect' that's different from yours..............

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Jim, Detroit was and is obviously mismanaged, but you do shift the subject rather nicely. Detroit is a dead city and the retired people are going to suffer. Once again promises were made that were impossible to keep. An unemployment rate of almost 50% doesn't help.
Detroit's Unemployment Rate Is Nearly 50%, According to the Detroit News

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I think that like most huge disasters, the default of Detroit doesn't just have one cause: it has several causes. Here are some of the ones I think are key to the slow-motion meltdown of the city- said "slow motion" having recently accelerated in a fashion which does credit to the Motor City tradition, I must say:

-the inability of American manufacturers to compete in certain sections of the auto market which have turned out to be key ones.
-corruption and mismanagement of the city's dwindling assets by a series of incompetent and venal city administrations
-Detroit's unfortunate position of being in a state which is also not doing all that well
-union stranglehold on American automakers, which combined with point #1 to cede much of the market to Japanese, Korean, and European manufacturers
-the fact that Detroit has, as far as I can tell, never done much of anything other than build cars. OK, there's nothing wrong with that, but other cities have seen their big industries fade and managed to attract new forms of manufacturing and sources of jobs. Detroit doesn't seem to be doing that. I have had some experiences with industries that have relocated their headquarters and service centers to Detroit, and so far, I am sorry to say, my experiences have not been good ones. I hope they can up their game. They need to.

It's sad and ironic; the American automakers, regardless of how you feel about the bailout of two of them by the US government (and this thread is not about that) are building better cars and beginning to reclaim their place in the market. The European manufacturers are actually staying alive by selling cars here, not there. Perhaps the city of Detroit is just behind the curve- perhaps they are where the car companies were a few years ago, and will be able to right themselves. I hope so. But with the level of city debt that they have, and a tiny population compared to where they were, I am not holding my breath. Keep in mind that other Michigan cities have gone bankrupt. Detroit isn't the first.

 

[Larry L.]

I would add the '67(?) race riot in Detroit to your list. That event motivated many to 'get the heck out of Dodge' all by itself.

 

[Keith]

We've all had our 'race riots,' but none has ended up in the quasi permanent destruction of a seminal city. It's Motown for God's sake!

We have our Brixton, and following several serious riots, enough public and Govt intervention was applied that resulted in a regeneration programme which transformed the area into a vibrant community.

1981 Brixton riot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, it is still the headquarters of the notorious 'UK 'Yardie' massive, and yes, it still has an edgy feel, but all is open, cosmopolitan and working well.

People and Govt plain realised that despite the widespread looting and property destruction, there was an underlying and compelling causality.

I don't know who, but it happened.

From the more, let us say, hard right side, Brixton regeneration was a disaster - they lost the Special Patrol Group Policing Unit which were, effectively, an armed militia within the Metropolitan Police Force dealing mostly with ethnic 'problems.' White people weren't bothered by the SPG, if you get my drift?

Since their enforced disbanding (SPG), there have been very few incidents anywhere near on the scale of the 1981 event.

I am not holding this up as a shining 'how to' but just to illustrate that, even though there has been a large scale 'race riot' does not necessarily mean an endgame and the abandonment of reason.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

You know, I never thought of this, but WHY didn't the Japanese manufacturers set up in Detroit when they were building plants here? I'm afraid to find out the answer. I suspect they did the rational thing and went to areas of the country that were 1)nonunion 2) willing and able to provide incentives for them to come there 3) happy to have them.

A new Detroit will be a great deal smaller than the previous one, it will have far fewer people, and it will have to tear down much of what is abandoned there at the present time. Possibly, with a reduced size and ambition, it may be able to survive and maybe even prosper. But there is no law that says cities have to endure. They are ephemeral as are all works of mankind.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

When the automaker has a choice of paying a reasonable wage in the south or paying $75.00 per hour for a semi skilled line worker whose base pay is $29.00 per hour before benefits, union dues etc., the choice is easy.

 

[Keith]

I thought the wages in the South have always been considerably lower, in fact I didn't realise they paid wages period :laugh:

Seriously, why that massive differential? You're right, that cannot be sustainable.. :worried:

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

The current veteran UAW member at GM today has an average base wage of $28.12 an hour, but the cost of benefits, including pension and future retiree health care costs, nearly triples the cost to GM to $78.21, according to the Center for Automotive Research.

$50.09 per hour in extra costs is stupid, they are paying for unfunded liabilities for the retired with present workers. another Ponzi scheme.

By comparison, new hires will be paid between $14 and $16.23 an hour. And even as they start to accumulate raises tied to seniority, the far less lucrative benefit package will limit GM’s cost for those employees to $25.65 an hour.
How much does an American auto worker make?

 

[Keith]

Who mentioned city downsizing?

Was it you Jimbo?

BBC News - Detroit: Six ways cities try to survive

You're a genius Dr Jim! (either that or you are a secret copy writer for the BBC) :laugh:

 

[Al Jones]

There's not just one underlying cause here. Al mentioned the hourly cost, which is not just wages being exorbitant, but if you look at that, you'll find it's the greedy insurance companies who are responsible for the medical care and program mangement costs. The population decrease is certainly a major factor in that the people, and hence businesses, that left were the ones who were footing the bills. That means that even a small percentage loss is disastrous as these are the only ones paying into the system. The big problem I see is the ones who are left, the ones who weren't paying to start with, are still preying on the system. The 50% unemployment statistic is skewed....it assumes those people are actually looking for work. A good portion of the non-working are non-working by choice. A percentage of those are employed at 'other' jobs....all related to the drug trade. It's a scenario playing out in many mid to large cities in many locations, the drug trade increasing the dependence on the system and causing, at the same time, the working people and businesses to flee to survive. If you don't believe that, go out and take a walk through downtown Baltimore, backstreet Atlantic City, Bridgeport, etc. My feeling, unsupported by statistics, because those 'statistics' would involve the government stepping into the politically incorrect arena, is the city is dying because all the real working people left because they couldn't survive in the cesspool anymore and the bloodsuckers are still there. The Dem's AND the Republicans can't control the exodus, they're locked into supporting the bloodsuckers by government mandate which was designed to help honest folks in need but now abused by the leeches, and nobody is willing to go in with a figurative flamethrower and eliminate the infestation.