What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF?

[Ron Earp]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

[ QUOTE ]
I've rebuilt plenty of 385 series 351's, both the Cleveland and the 351-M, and have used high volume oil pumps in all of them without problems,

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know any 351 variants were 385 series. I've always thought the 385s were the 370, 429, 460 series, and I've done some 460s before. Didn't know they had commonality with the 351C.

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

C'mon Fella's, get with the program-351c is the 335 series- 429/460 is the 385 series- 332/352/390/406/410/427/428 and all there truck cousins, 361/391 are from the FE series. There is also the 351m/400m which has the small block bore spacing with 429/460 bellhousing bolt pattern.I will leave the edsel-t/bird oddballs out of it.

Cheers Jack.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Got it wrong on the 370 thing, thinking 390. Jack you got it right I think without doing any searching. Saw a cool build of a 400M that made a lot of power for next to nothing - engines are plentiful in yards in the US and nobody wants them. No good for a 40 though.

Ron

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

My Bad! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Wrong series, correct displacements. I don't think that the 335 and 385 series shares much, maybe a dizzy or something like that, but they both use the canted valve head design. My 351-M lasted a long time and did an admirable job of getting an old, heavy Galaxie around. They are a pretty tall motor, though, so not good for the 40's. The 4 X 4 crowd likes them b/c of the torque.

Just like one of the forum member's signature states--I stand corrected!

 

[Mark Worthington]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Doug, it sounds like you really want to do something different/unique with the engine in your car, having considered supercharging and dry sumping. Here's what I would do if I had the means and wanted something really different yet totally cool in the engine department: I'd get a Dart aluminum short-deck block, I'd enlist the aid of the good people at Crower and I'd build a flat-plane V8 with an extremely light reciprocating assembly and a custom tri-Y exhaust system. Such an engine would make great power, be very light, capable of turning high RPM, and would sound like a Ferrari racecar(not that GT40s don't sound great). The light weight is a bonus in any performance car. Depending how you cam it, you could save a lot of wear and tear on your transaxle by going with a narrower power band higher up in the rpm range.

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

I think we agree on concept, Mark. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif My plans do involve an aluminum block, aluminum heads, aluminum intake manifold, aluminum flywheel, aluminum, aluminum,.....I want to keep the finished vehicle weight as low as possible. Reciprocating assembly will be all forged stuff, mainly for reliability (I love to build stuff but am much less happy fixing broken stuff). High RPM capability has been the goal from the beginning and I think lightweight reciprocating assembly combined with as much backup (such as main stud girdle, ARP fasteners, light weight valvetrain, rocker stud girdle, etc) as possible will help the motor last at those RPM's. Beginning target horsepower range will be in the 350-400 range, and I think with this combo I won't have to go too radical on the cam profile to get there. I have quite a bit of time to build the motor before I can order the 40 kit, but target date for the purchase of the aluminum block is early spring 2007. I'll probably already have the reciprocating assembly, the valve train and the intake system by the time I order the block. The Dart is at the top of the list right now, but more and more people are building aluminum blocks and so I'm open to suggestions.

I must admit you have mentioned something I've not heard before--what is a "flat-plane V8"?. I have used Crower products in the past quite a bit, so I am already onboard with the manufacturer. Please tell me more about this!

Since it will be a street car, I do need some low RPM power, so as much as I'd like to (and probably will) drive it in the 4,000 to 7,500 RPM range, I will need for the motor to be tractable in the 2,000 RPM range, too. To that end I will be using aluminum aftermarket Cleveland closed chamber type heads with small intake ports--"small port Boss 302" is the term I've heard and adopted to describe this combo. At first I will probably run a Holley or Demon carb, probably in the 750 CFM range, but future plans include sending the intake to MasFlo EFI and having them weld on injector bungs for their EFI system. This system uses a dry flow EFI throttle body with the injectors at the junction of the intake manifold and the heads. With 1000 CFM capacity I think it will probably support as many RPMs as I am willing to risk, and being computer controlled it should offer low RPM tractability, too. I've driven Cleveland headed motors almost constantly since 1972 and one thing that impresses me about them is their ability to create smooth torque from just off idle--they make great street motors. I'm hoping that combining the Cleveland type heads with the reliability and good oiling system enjoyed by the Windsor block will be the best of both worlds. BTW--you mentined "low deck"--the block I'm considering is an 8.2" block--is that the one you meant?

I'm curious as to why you suggested a tri-Y header system. I love the looks of the BOS exhaust systems that are so prevalent on our GT40 replicas--but, with this being my first build I am interested in keeping it as simple as possible, so I'm open to any suggestions. Please tell me more about that recommendation, too. Essentially, I am, as you correctly surmised, interested in building something a bit different. Someday maybe the whole supercharged/dry sumped thing will happen, but for now I realize that simpler is the way to go for my first build. I'm nearing retirement and this may be the only replica I will ever build, although I am hoping to have a whole garage full someday. The GT40 has always been my dream car, though, so it will be the first just in case it does happen to be the one and only.

Looking forward to hearing back from you!

 

[Mark Worthington]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

I'm not an expert by any means, but the flat-plane V8 has been discussed here on this forum previously - you might want to do a search. Rather than trying to explain it myself, I'll just quote the Wikipedia article:

There are two classic types of V8s which differ by crankshaft:

The cross-plane V8 is the typical V8 configuration used in American road cars. Each crank pin (of four) is at a 90° angle from the previous, so that viewed from the end the crankshaft forms a cross. The cross-plane can achieve very good balance but requires heavy counterweights on the crankshaft. This makes the cross-plane V8 a slow-revving engine that cannot speed up or slow down very quickly compared to other designs, because of the greater rotating mass. While the firing of the cross-plane V8 is regular overall, the firing of each bank is not; this leads to the need to connect exhaust pipes between the two banks to design an optimal exhaust system. This complex and encumbering exhaust system has been a major problem for single-seater racing car designers.

The flat-plane V8 design has crank pins at 180°. They are imperfectly balanced and thus produce severe vibrations unless balance shafts are used. As they don't require counterweights, the crankshaft has less mass and thus inertia, allowing higher rpm and quicker acceleration. The design was popularized in modern racing with the Coventry Climax 1.5 L V8 which evolved from a cross-plane to a flat-plane configuration. Flat-plane V8s on road cars come from Ferrari (the Dino), Lotus (the Esprit V8), and TVR (the Speed Eight). This design is popular in racing engines, the most famous example being the Cosworth DFV.

I note that the Ferrari 360 and F430 also use flat-plane V8 engines. I don't know if they utilize counterbalance shafts (like the Porsche 944 used to have).

So it comes down to a trade off of reduced reciprocating mass vs increased NVH. The NVH can be minimized by using high-quality, very light crank, rods and pistons. The increased NVH of a flat-plane V8 is not acceptablibe for production luxury cars, but perfectly reasonable for a high-preformance GT40, IMO. As for the Tri-Y exhaust, it has something to do with minimizing overlap of exhaust pulses, but I only know enough to be dangerous here. Talk to Crower - the guy I spoke with there was extremely knowledgeable about flat-plane V8s.

 

[Dan Haynes]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

John --

Ref the Cleveland HV pump. Doug is correct. The cylinder heads pool oil in the heads. Combine that with the oiling system, and you are exacerbating the problem. The HV pump will put MORE oil to the top end of the engine and LESS oil to the main bearings. Since the Cleveland oiling system is essentially the same as a small block Chrysler, I would not use an HV pump there either. My R-302 block seems fine with the HV pump. But, it has a completely different oiling system. It is a priority main, small block chevy type oiling system. As Smokey Yunick would say...the best in the world.

The HV pump will work fine on most street cars that rarely see RPM above 6K and then for only a 13 second dash at most. But for sustained high RPM, an HV pump in a 335 series engine is a real bad idea. I know many will disagree. They have read in all the magazines to use the HV pump. But, my pile of deceased 351 blocks and cranks tell a different story. I finally decided the magazines don't know a thing about trying to road race a 351C. The pantera guys know what to do. They put different blocks in or dry sump the Clev. If you dry sump it, the problem is solved.

Doug -- the accumulator will not solve the problem on the above mentioned high RPM set up with HV pump. The pan will get sucked dry, then the accumulator will shove in a few more qts. Then those will ALSO get shoved up to the top of the engine. Bearings will fail next. Now maybe a 10 QT system, and 3 QT accumulator might work. But, I never tried that. I did try an 8qt pan and a 2qt accumulator. It lasted maybe one weekend.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[Jac Mac]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Doug, Unless you want to spend your retirement working on your motor continually checking bolt torque's etc as well as on every other component that is bolted solidly to the motor, Do Not use a flat plane crank. If you ever get the chance, speak to some of the older Formula A/5000 Engine builders that tried them, bear in mind that they used a 3.00" stroke ( The problems increase with longer stroke ). It was a major problem then with cast blocks & heads, I dont think it would get better when using alloy blocks etc.
While looking for your Dart Block check out the 8.700" deck option. Use the 3.25" stroke crank and any bore you fancy up to 4.200" ( might pay to use say 4.170" just in case you love driving the car enough to wear out the first bore!!). The Taller deck would allow longer rods for a better rod ratio .Yes I know the T/Boss manifold wont fit, but you really want the injection dont you?
Cheers Jack.

 

[Doug S.]

Re: What block preparation is required for dry sumping a SBF

Thanks, Jack--I really don't want to spend my retirement working on the motor constantly. I did some research into Mark's suggestion, but since this is going to be my first build I decided that it would not be a good idea to attempt to learn a new motor technology as part of this process /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nono.gif. The idea of a high revving SBF has always been the goal, and I think with the Cleveland style heads on a good 302 block I can achieve that with adequate attention paid to intake and exhaust.

I will start out with a stock stroke crank in the Dart block for just the reason you mentioned in your post--the rod ratio is better. If I were to stroke the motor in the future, I would hold to a short stroke (probably the .25" stroke you suggested) for the same reason. I understand that with the longer stroke needed to get to 347 CID the piston pin must be very near the lower ring land and that the rod ratio is the reason these engines need frequent rebuilds. Like I said--I like very much to build new things, but tearning down and repairing broken or worn out things is much less fun. As for the 8.7" deck blocks, well, I am going to start with a carburetor and may switch to a dry throttle body based EFI later on. The throttle body will replace the carburetor and minor machine work will be required on the intake manifold to create a location for the fuel injectors. If somebody were to make an intake manifod for the 8.7" block that will allow the use of the Cleveland heads, I'd sure consider it! Since you folks on the other side of the pond have so much more available in the way of Cleveland parts, I'd be interested in hearing about what might be available.

Thanks for the input to all!

 

[Bernard]

Hi Doug,
Somewhere it is comforting to meet a guy that is thinking like you. I don't have a GT40 car, but I have built a Cobra Daytona. I had bought 5 years ago the body from Bill Connely (Upstate Replicar). It was a nice base to start my project but it was very heavy My first job was to found an aluminum block 302 SBF to save some pounds. Except the transmission, GT40 engine is similare to a Cobra. In the link here below, you will see some pictures of this engine. I have also provided a dry sump that is in conjonction with a race engine.
Club Cobra Photo Gallery - nanard289 Gallery - Powered by PhotoPost
The external oil pump is 4 stage and it is easy to adjust the exact oil flow that you need by using different pulleys (I start first with 16X32 and now I use 17X36). The dry sump is 5.5" depth. It is coming from a 351 engine that will allow (if you need) a very large stroke (until 4"). The only problem that I find with this block is about some cylinder sleeves. Some of them are going down by .006" I don't know the origin of this problem (it is a new block with less of 100 miles) but I have to bring it to the workshop to have a new deck honed. Hope these informations can help you (be indulgent for my poor english langage )

 

[Sandy]

The only problem that I find with this block is about some cylinder sleeves. Some of them are going down by .006" I don't know the origin of this problem (it is a new block with less of 100 miles) but I have to bring it to the workshop to have a new deck honed. Hope these informations can help you (be indulgent for my poor english langage )

The set up of the Ford 302 Alum blocks requires a bit of extra work. I think they are shipped with the sleeves up about .006" by design. If your block was new you should have got a sheet with the info on how to prep the new block, which is something like heat block, sink sleeves, deck. If you decked before final placement of the sleeves that likely is the problem. RDI can also help if you have questions on the block prep (They make them for Ford).

I have one in my mustang and have beat it, run it hot, and have not had any issues with it yet.

Sandy

 

[Doug S.]

Hi Doug,
Somewhere it is comforting to meet a guy that is thinking like you. In the link here below, you will see some pictures of this engine. I have also provided a dry sump that is in conjonction with a race engine.
Club Cobra Photo Gallery - nanard289 Gallery - Powered by PhotoPost Hope these informations can help you (be indulgent for my poor english langage )

You and I think alike in more ways than you realized. I noted your use of the canted valve Yates cylinder heads. I'm going to use alloy Cleveland style cylinder heads myself--those of us who are using the canted valve heads know all about the smooth, wide torque curve they produce. This year the "Clevor" engines seemed to dominate the Engine Masters competition, although most seemed to use the Australian CHI heads. There may just be a "...new sheriff in town", though. Check out the offerings of this company if you like canted valve heads for your Ford: Aus Ford Parts Lawrence is the proprietor and he told me he might even be able to get me a good deal on a new alloy Dart block--worth checking out.

BTW--that was one nice build on the Daytona!! If you decide to build yourself a GT40 you'll be halfway there already with your knowledge of automotive fabrication. One of our forum members has an ERA with a Cleveland using a Redline stack injection system. It may just be my dream build, although for simplicity sake I'll use the 8.2" block.

I couldn't help but notice this was your first post. I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the forum, Bernard. Don't let your perceived difficulty with the English language keep you from posting in the future--we all butcher the "Queen's English" at times, but in the end we gearheads all speak the same language!

Doug

 

[Jac Mac]

In an alloy block it is usually preferable to have a small amount of sleeve protrusion, about 0.004" depending on where the sleeve register is in the block. Any block with the sleeve lower than the deck surface is asking for head gasket problems.

Nice Daytona Bernard, I know that feeling when a wheel parts company, at first you dont want to believe its yours, but when the sparks start spraying around your footwell area, it gets a little hard to deny the fact!

Jac Mac

 

[CliffBeer]

I know this is a bit of old news for this post, however, the flat crank is used succesfully in modern ferrari engines without counter rotating balance shafts or similar devices - despite what is indicated above. There's no reason a flat crank wouldn't work as well in a SBF as a ferrari engine.

In my experience, there is a slight increase in vibration over a 90 crank, however, it is not really significant if the engine balance (pistons, rods, etc.) is good. And, again despite what is indicated above, there is no need for complicated exhaust engineering - performs and sounds just fine with conventional exhaust systems. The Lancia Thema 3.2 has the exact same engine as a ferrari 328 but with a 90 crank instead of a flat crank and it's only very slightly smoother in operation.

The flat crank V8 does have a unique sound over a 90 crank - not a mellow sound, rather, more like a F1 car. Listen to the next 348 or 355/360 accelerating past you (in your Honda, not the GT40 of course) and you'll be able to notice it.

 

[Jac Mac]

Cliff,

You have not taken into account that your Ferrari @ 3.2 litre or 3.6 litre is only going to have from 400/450 cc per cyl. In order to have this it will have a shorter stroke or smaller bore or combo of both than the 5.0 litre(302 cu in ) Ford with 625cc per cyl. The reduction of weight of the smaller rods/pistons is what allows ferrari to achieve a relatively smooth 180 deg engine. It is also interesting to note that in the lancia application that they revert to 90deg configuration, perhaps to appease the not so sporty drivers who may demand a smoother running engine as opposed to the ferrari driver who i imagine loves hearing his exhaust note and accepts the slightly harsher characteristic as part of the package.

I should also point out that if your GT40 has a crossover exhaust system with 180deg firing intervals its exhaust will be similar to the Ferrari but deeper and more "Authorative " due to the larger capacity of each cylinder.

Jac Mac

 

[Bernard]

In an alloy block it is usually preferable to have a small amount of sleeve protrusion, about 0.004" depending on where the sleeve register is in the block. Any block with the sleeve lower than the deck surface is asking for head gasket problems.

Nice Daytona Bernard, I know that feeling when a wheel parts company, at first you dont want to believe its yours, but when the sparks start spraying around your footwell area, it gets a little hard to deny the fact!

Jac Mac

Hello Jac Mac
I Fully agree with you, a little sleeve protusion is better by far than a sleeve to lower but you can obtain it only if you change all cylinder sleeves (with a larger head escarpment). Any way, a good deck honed operation will solve my problem but I will be also obliged to reduce the piston compression heigh accordingly
Thanks also for your kind words about my Daytona

 

[Bernard]

You and I think alike in more ways than you realized. I noted your use of the canted valve Yates cylinder heads. I'm going to use alloy Cleveland style cylinder heads myself--those of us who are using the canted valve heads know all about the smooth, wide torque curve they produce. This year the "Clevor" engines seemed to dominate the Engine Masters competition, although most seemed to use the Australian CHI heads. There may just be a "...new sheriff in town", though. Check out the offerings of this company if you like canted valve heads for your Ford: Aus Ford Parts Lawrence is the proprietor and he told me he might even be able to get me a good deal on a new alloy Dart block--worth checking out.

BTW--that was one nice build on the Daytona!! If you decide to build yourself a GT40 you'll be halfway there already with your knowledge of automotive fabrication. One of our forum members has an ERA with a Cleveland using a Redline stack injection system. It may just be my dream build, although for simplicity sake I'll use the 8.2" block.

I couldn't help but notice this was your first post. I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the forum, Bernard. Don't let your perceived difficulty with the English language keep you from posting in the future--we all butcher the "Queen's English" at times, but in the end we gearheads all speak the same language!

Doug

Hello Doug
First of them, thank you for your warm welcome in the GT40s forum
Regarding the Australian cylinder heads Cleveland type, they have a great reputation in the racer's world and they are very close with the best Brodix or Yates. I believe that the main difference is only made by the porting operations. The Yates choice for my engine was only a good opportunity. However, I guess that the last association Yates / Roush is now able to offer one of the best cylinder head of the racing Ford market.
As you can see Doug, I follow your recommendations and I understand that this forum is a good opportunity to improve my mechanical knowledge..... and my American language

 

[Bernard]

I know this is a bit of old news for this post, however, the flat crank is used succesfully in modern ferrari engines without counter rotating balance shafts or similar devices - despite what is indicated above. There's no reason a flat crank wouldn't work as well in a SBF as a ferrari engine.

In my experience, there is a slight increase in vibration over a 90 crank, however, it is not really significant if the engine balance (pistons, rods, etc.) is good. And, again despite what is indicated above, there is no need for complicated exhaust engineering - performs and sounds just fine with conventional exhaust systems. The Lancia Thema 3.2 has the exact same engine as a ferrari 328 but with a 90 crank instead of a flat crank and it's only very slightly smoother in operation.

The flat crank V8 does have a unique sound over a 90 crank - not a mellow sound, rather, more like a F1 car. Listen to the next 348 or 355/360 accelerating past you (in your Honda, not the GT40 of course) and you'll be able to notice it.

Hello CliffBeer
As you say, a flat crank can be working as well on a Ford or Ferrari engine. (by this way, I learn that the Lancia Thema was equipped with a different crankshaft than the 328 Ferrari). Independently of the crankshaft balancing, the main difference is coming from ignition order. Each design has a specific test bench results. If we compare the last motorcycle race engine technologie we can observe today 2 different main ways:
- the screamer engine (that are able to produce large power at high rpm)
- the "big-bang" engine (that are able to produce the best torque at medium rpm).
Big bang technologie was developped in the motorcycle engine twin type during the eighties. Traditionaly, on a twin engine, the ignition gap between both cylinders was 360°. Big bang idea is to provide a little gap between both crank pins to have both cylinders firing very closely (0-717°-720°) instead of 0-360°-720°. As result, the torque pic was better and lower than a traditional engine. The principle is today used on the 4 and 8 cylinder engines with specific crank and different firing order to obtain different engine characteristics and different ...sounds

 

[Bernard]

The set up of the Ford 302 Alum blocks requires a bit of extra work. I think they are shipped with the sleeves up about .006" by design. If your block was new you should have got a sheet with the info on how to prep the new block, which is something like heat block, sink sleeves, deck. If you decked before final placement of the sleeves that likely is the problem. RDI can also help if you have questions on the block prep (They make them for Ford).

I have one in my mustang and have beat it, run it hot, and have not had any issues with it yet.

Sandy

Hi Sandy
As you say, a new RDI bloc requires some workshop operations. However, when I receive it, the deck elevation as well the camshaft bearings was at the finished values and cylinder sleeves was without any protusion. Only cylinder bores and crankshaft bearings was at semi-finished values. Anyway, I will follow your recommendations and I will try to contact RDI to know what is the minimum acceptable value