Who owns the rights to the GT40 Body?

Patent.

I particularly like the above statement having spent the last three years plus and a very large amount of £'s (50K +) defending my late Fathers Will. When the Barrister tells you (at cost) that the "LAW IS AN ASS" you know you've got snags!
I have registered my own IP with both UK and US Patent Offices and yes the interpretations from both sides of the pond were very different. The US Office were particularly difficult which proved very costly. My Avatar is also registered which was a simple enough process compared to the Patent application. That's my personal experience any way.
 
How would You feel

Keith1 said:
Yes Chris - accepted, but if you created a set of graphics for a customer, for example, this work then becomes unique to you, no matter if it utilises logos or fonts which were in the public domain, and someone copied it, how would you feel?
un-Quote

The same rules should apply across the board?
 

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Howard Jones

Supporter
You know, looking back over the RF saga I noticed that the beginning of the end seamed to coincide with the lawyers getting involved. The details of this has never been very clear for me anyway, sort of like this case, and I suppose they are not material to my point anyway.

My advice is never spend money on lawyers unless it will MAKE money. Remember boys capital is king in the small business world. Preserve capital for growth. I would hate to see all this unfold yet again. Besides good engineers rarely make good lawyers much like good doctors rarely make good bankers.

Have a beer, shake hands, cut a deal without lawyers, put it in the past, and get back to what you guys do very well. Build cool GT40 stuff.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Howard Jones said:
You know, looking back over the RF saga I noticed that the beginning of the end seamed to coincide with the lawyers getting involved. The details of this has never been very clear for me anyway,

Just for the record and nothing to do with this case, the lawyers didn't get involved with RF from the customer side of things until rumors were flying. At approximately the same time RF/RL had entered into administration, on their own accord, to avoid all the potential suits that would be on the way. So, while the end might be flagged with lawyers in the case of RF, the handwriting was already on the wall and the laywers didn't not precipitate the wind up.

Now back to your regularily scheduled discussion.

Ron
 
RaceZone said:
To put my half penny's worth in, I would imagine that any rights probably remain with Safir Parts (Ohio I think), I gather that it was these "gents" that did not allow Ford to use the GT40 name for the "New GT".

I know this is a couple of days late and off the main topic of this thread, but the above statement, regarding the use of the "GT40" name for the new Ford GT, is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, it has been repeated so many times over the past few years that it is now an urban legend. Please speak with Bob Wood of Safir GT40 Spares in Ohio (513-672-8105) to get the real story. I believe Bob is a member of this web site. Perhaps he should post a message about Safir's dealings with Ford over the new GT so that all of us will understand what really went on.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
That is a good suggestion Don and I hope someone that knows Bob (maybe you) could get him to post the real story. He hasn't been on this forum since 9/2004 so it is doubtful he is reading this thread. I'd be interested to hear the real thing posted in black and white since many, many stories have been circulated.

Ron
 
An interesting thread...

FYI...after Shelby sued the replica industry, US Courts determined the Cobra body shape to be in the public domain. I'd expect the same thing applies
(in the US) to any older race cars that is/was/will be replicated.
Why Ferrari was/is successful where others have failed, I cannot say.
Maybe because their cars were more "street" then "race" ???
Maybe because they had better lawyers ???

The US Courts did uphold Shelby's ownership of the Cobra name...hence
the manufacturers can no longer use "Cobra" when referring to their kits.
Kit makers no longer supply the Cobra emblems, or show any pictures
with the emblems in place. The buyers take care of those themselves.

Now for the disagreeable part of my post. "Replicating" someone else's
work is (sometimes) illegal...and (frequently) unethical.
But it can also fill a need that isn't being met.
Without ERA/Unique/FFR/RCR/etc etc providing affordable
replicas, thousands of enthusiasts would never realize their dream.

I'm very glad Shelby failed to shut down or extort the Cobra industry.
And if someone else wants to start making Cobras/Lolas/GT40 by splashing
another body, that's their choice. IMHO anyone who owns a replica and thinks otherwise is being hypocritical.

Mike
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
GT40 body shape

A few observations:
-the people who own Safir GT40 Spares Ltd. paid for the tooling, the GT40 trademark for cars, and the body shape, as I understand it. While I don't know the amounts involved, I suspect it was not cheap. Further, they have licensed same to Superformance et al, which would confirm their right to license same to manufacturers.
-Safir et al did not decline to let Ford use the GT40 name, as I understand it. Nor did they ask an exorbitant price, from what I can gather. Why Ford declined to meet what I think was probably a fair request is not known to me. In my dealings to date with the Safir principals I have found them to be fair, competent, and extremely knowledgeable.

Disclosure: my car is being built by Safir, so I do not pretend to any neutrality on this.
 
jimbo said:
A few observations:
-Safir et al did not decline to let Ford use the GT40 name, as I understand it. Nor did they ask an exorbitant price, from what I can gather. Why Ford declined to meet what I think was probably a fair request is not known to me. In my dealings to date with the Safir principals I have found them to be fair, competent, and extremely knowledgeable.

I would say that 40 million just to use the name seems exorbitant to me.

here is a link to the artical...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=421

and here is the qutoe for the lazy and clicking impared...

"Ford has announced more details about its upcoming supercar based on the Ford GT40 concept shown at last January's North American International Auto Show. For starters, just call it the Ford GT. There was some grumbling that the new car should be called the GT44 for its 44-in. height just as the original was dubbed for its 40-in.-tall stance, but that's not the reason for the change. It turns out that Ford bought rights only for the concept from Safir GT40 Spares of Cincinnati, Ohio, a supplier of spare parts for the Ford racer that bought the name in 1999. According to Automotive News, Ford balked at the firm's $40 million asking price for permission to use the GT40 name in production. The official Ford line is that the original car, as conceived by Henry Ford II, was the Ford GT and that GT40 was just a nickname."
 
The official Ford line is that the original car, as conceived by Henry Ford II, was the Ford GT and that GT40 was just a nickname.

While I understand that to be the case from various press releases, it no doubt gained its nickname of GT40 as a result of all the parts being stamped/cast with GT40, as well as the chassis plates starting GT40P...

Surely if they wanted to call the new one the GT44 that would not be a problem ??
 
Registered designs

Interesting debate but you need to remember that unless Ford registered their design copies can be made when not competing in the market place against the original. However only the use of the manufacturers name on that product is illegal withour writen concent (ref: Cobra, Ferrari etc).
So Ford sold the rights to the name GT40 to Safir that was their misjugement however the shape unless registered (which I believe it is not) is for all to copy.
My two pence worth.....
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Ford did not "sell" the rights to the trademark, they never registered it! An oversight in hindsight but who cared about "last years race cars"?

Rick
 
Ron Earp said:
That is a good suggestion Don and I hope someone that knows Bob (maybe you) could get him to post the real story. He hasn't been on this forum since 9/2004 so it is doubtful he is reading this thread. I'd be interested to hear the real thing posted in black and white since many, many stories have been circulated.

Ron
Ron and Don,

Thank you for the impetus and the forum to tell the real story! We have told several publications the true story, all of which have Ford as a major advertiser. We feel that we will never get a fair deal with any of the automotive periodicals.

I will begin with two statements that are absolutely true. We never demanded any amount of money from Ford, never demanded $40 million, and the Ford Motor Company never made Safir an offer to evaluate. That being stated, one must understand that Ford was unwilling to spend any real money to buy the trademark.

Ford never registered the "GT40" word mark. Peter Thorp did in 1985 to make his MkVs the only legitimate GT40s with the name and successive serial numbers. In 1995 a toy company approached Ford to make a model of the GT40, and Ford realized at that time that they did not have any rights to the GT40 mark. Peter Thorp granted Ford the right to register a "GT40" mark for a different class of products (toys), which registration he could have opposed as it was a "GT40" model of his "GT40" cars. He allowed Ford to do so for no charge. Ford agreed never to interfere with Safir's registration or use of the "GT40" mark for full size automobiles.

When Ford decided to make the GT40 Concept into a production vehicle, Ford asked us (Safir) what we wanted for the mark to sell it to Ford, not just license it. We knew that Ford charges 7.5% of the retail price of a product to license the Blue Oval. We suggested that we begin our negotiations at that level, and that number was in fact $40million. For said that that was out of the question. We then asked Ford to make us an offer. Ford said that they did not want to make us an offer that we would not accept (?); essentially asking us to bid against ourselves! We said that we would take $25million. They laughed and we laughed, and then Ford said, "Seriously, what do you want?" We said, "Seriously,you make us the offer." For never would make us an offer in writing. Several things were suggested for which we asked a written offer. Tom Scarpello of Ford would never put anything in writing.

We told young Keith Crane (K.C.), son of Keith Crane owner Crane publications, just as above. It was K.C. Crane who printed the words "demanded", "bombshell" and that things got "ugly". We never demanded, it was never a bombshell, and we communicated with Ford for three months begging Ford for an offer. Ford for three months kept telling us that the "market equation" which they used to determine how many more cars they would sell as "GT40" vs. "Ford GT" would not justify spending much money on the trademark. Scarpello told us that the trademark was worth only that which we paid for the Safir assets which included the mark;he asked what did we pay $10,000, $15.000, $25,000. Ford never made us an offer, we never demanded any amount, much less the $40million tale, and K.C. Crane published something that was very misleading. It made us look very bad, and Ford the injured party. Ford did not care about the trademark.

We have heard from within Ford that we were offered the first and last car and $5million (Scarpello told that to a group of Ford enthusiasts gathered at a luncheon; he knew that it was not true), that we were offered $1million and a car each (Neil Ressler told me that himself) and that we would not take it, and that we were impossible to deal with. None of which is true.

We were only approached by Automotive News Weekly (K.C.Crane) for our side of the story. K.C.Crane mislead the readers with his wording. No other publication, no other publication, no other publication asked us for the story. DBLDREW links readers to Road and Track who never contacted us. The R&T article is just the same B.S. that R&T got from the Crane article. This is true for every article that has been written, except for articles that were written by Jim Mateja if the Chicago Tribune whom we subsequently contacted, and who wrote the true story. However, that story received little press when compared to the Crane story.

We would deserve the derogatory comments ( "gents" ((above)), "hosers", etc.) which we have been called if in fact there were any truth to the "offers" from Ford. We would have been idiots to have turned down millions of dollars and new cars, and we would not have had they been offered.

The shape is not in the public domain. A tenet of trademark law establishes that if a visual image conjures in one's mind a word mark, then the two are deemed to be one and the same. Does anyone look at a GT40 shaped car and think of anything other than "GT40"? Each mark is able to be registered.
Think of a winged red horse...Mobile Oil?

Thank you for reading! There is more to the story which will be published in the forth-coming Shelby World Registry. As Don S. has written, anyone can call me, and I will be happy to elborate. This is a great site, Ron. Thank you for the forum!

Bob Wood
 
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