WTF?

[Jim Craik]

I wonder if we might be over playing this video violence thing, just a couple of thoughts.

These types of violent video games are extremely popular in Japan, yet they are a country with a very very low violence rate.

When my generation was growing up, between TV and movies, we were the first to be exposed to literally thousands of violent deaths. From John Wayne war movies, to westerns to Elliot Ness, style gangster shows. Yet many in our generation refued to go off to Viet Nam.

 

[Al Jones]

Jim, I am not educated well enough on the psychological effects of video games to make a call on that but I suspect you have a good point there. We all grew up OK with violence in movies, cartoons, and such but I would not confuse either willingness or reluctance to go to war with a psychosis that drives someone to kill. However, as I remarked in the other thread about this horrific event, we should look at how the modern media (TV/Web) has an effect as well. They handled this fairly well, being respectful of the town and the families but it's the notoriety that attracts the 'fringe' people, those feeling lost and abandoned who react in this manner knowing it will guarantee them attention, even it's posthumously. That doesn't say the situation shouldn't be covered by the press, it just naturally brings out more miscreants. As proof, in the short time since the Newtown shootings, a threat to do a similar deed was made in Indiana and a bomb threat was made on the church in Newtown as a service for the victims was being held there.
I think [we] responsible gun owners can see the point that objectors have about large-count magazines but, does that matter?..... a revolver or even a double barreled shotgun can kill a bunch of people in short order. One victim is one too many. What we need is to do a better job of keeping the guns out of the wrong hands, both by citizens and government (Conn is quite stringent on their permit issues) and of not 'hiding' those who are on the edge of becoming the next shooter. This will be more than difficult, as there are huge numbers of illegal guns in circulation courtesy of the drug trade and psychotic individuals are increasingly harder to keep in check. In the end, there's no 'one stop' simple solution that I can see but maybe looking at this in a different way could provide some avenues for solutions.

 

[Keith]

Two things.

1. Japan is a very respectful society as are most Asian cultures. Their whole social structure is respect for elders and ancestors. There is no possible comparison.

2. The perpetrator in this case was well versed with guns and gun discipline. His mother was an avid shooter - member of several clubs and he had access to and familiarity with the 7 family guns from an early age.

We keep getting naysayers rubbishing media connections with these events. Why? Does anybody really know or are we going to dismiss the whole theory because "well I've been exposed to video games since childhood and I haven't killed anybody"

Let me ask an honest question. If you attend a race track and watch the days exciting auto racing, how do you drive when you leave the circuit? Let's have your answers.....

In the interests of science, be truthful now.....:evil:

Next theory?

 

[Jim Craik]

Even in a "respectful" society, with very little violence, if this type of commputer game really led to increased violence, then we would have increase in violence, right?

I'm afraid this is just another straw man, used to deflect the real problem. We keep hearing that its people with mental problems, anti social people or people who play violent video games that are responsible for these mass murders...................

But as we all know, its those people with guns who are responsable. Take the guns out of this skinny little twerps hand and those childeren would be alive. Its that simple.

 

[Randy V]

Watch this video and tell me what you think. Is it realistic enough?

NSFW - Language

YouTube

There are some that I have seen that are even more graphic. These are not actors that have been filmed. They are all computer generated. On the fly.

 

[Keith]

Even in a "respectful" society, with very little violence, if this type of commuter game really led to increased violence, then we would have increase in violence, right?

I'm afraid this is just another straw man, used to deflect the real problm. We keep hearing that its people with mental problems, anti social people or people who play violent video games that are responsible for these mass murders...................

But as we all know, its those people with guns who are responsable. Take the guns out of this skinny little twerps hand and those childeren would be alive. Its that simple.

No it's not. You would only have an increase in violence if the mind of the recipient is without the type of physchological limits imposed by a civilised society, and at this moment, Japan and similar places are more civilised because their family values and culture are endemic to their society - which is an obedient society by it's very nature. What the Western World is experiencing is the raw thin edge of personal freedom without constraints, morals and controls because the Ultra Capitalist businesses sell FEAR and FEAR sells Stuff.

I'll bet the sale of guns goes up exponentially over the next few weeks especially if they start talking about banning assault weapons.

OK lets put it bluntly - these poor little children were killed, ultimately, for profit.

You're going to have to think long and hard about that statement.

What's a commuter game? A train set?

 

[Keith]

Watch this video and tell me what you think. Is it realistic enough?

NSFW - Language

YouTube

There are some that I have seen that are even more graphic. These are not actors that have been filmed. They are all computer generated. On the fly.

Having a problem with that link Randy.... :shrug:

 

[Randy V]

Having a problem with that link Randy.... :shrug:

Funny - it comes up for me...

Trying again....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA378g_gD1I&sns=em]Battlefield 3: Official Fault Line Gameplay Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[DaveM]

Can anyone tell me why we need assault weapons? Why do we need 30 shot clips? Fully automatic weapons were banned in 1934. Under NRA reasoning why aren't they legal too? I've heard 'the genie is out of the bottle' argument, but can't Americans learn from other countries? Australia seems to have greatly reduced mass murders with its assault weapon ban in the 1990's. Solving this problem is not a simple fix, but doing nothing ensures Newtown massacres will be daily occurences soon. Any of you have school age children? How safe do you feel about them now?

 

[Jim Craik]

Let me ask an honest question. If you attend a race track and watch the days exciting auto racing, how do you drive when you leave the circuit? Let's have your answers....QUOTE]Posted be Keith.

Keith, I drive fast, but then I always drive fast, perhaps folks who attend auto races have a higher propensity to drive fast, going in?

Perhaps folks who play and enjoy violent video games have a higher propensity for violence, going in?

 

[Jim Craik]

OK Keith, I answered your "honest" question, please answer mine.

If guns make you safer, why don't we have the lowest gun death rate instead of the highest?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Jim the town of Kenneshaw Georgia passed a law that every head of a household
Must own a gun. Since that law was passed there has been a significant drop in
Crime in Kenneshaw.

 

[DaveM]

Pete,
That logic is shared by Rep. Louie Gohmert of Texas. He said school principals should be armed with assault rifles so they could shoot 'the shooter'. Why not top that with a fully automatic Browning 50 caliber machine gun and sandbags at every school entrance? Do Australians feel their liberties have been severally limited with your assault weapon ban? Why haven't you had several mass shootings in the 16 years of your ban?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Dave in Australia all guns were banned we were never allowed assault weapons.
Since the gun ban,true we haven't had a mass shooting but I can't remember one prior to Port Arthur which caused the ban. A fact is armed hold ups and gun crimes have increased since the ban. Suicides using guns have decreased.
Your reply is a distortion and melodramatic, look up the facts, Kenneshaw is an interesting counter point.

 

[DaveM]

Pete,
I have researched crime statistics on Kennesaw. Its mandatory gun ownership law was enacted in 1982 in response to a handgun ban by the city of Morton Grove, Illinois. Interestingly enough both towns have similar populations (25,000) and are suburbs of large cities. The number of murders, robberies, aggravated assault, and burglary are very close for both towns the last 10 years. If your logic is more guns/less murder why is the U.S. gun homicide rate 3.25/100K population vs .1/100K Australia? The other country with high gun ownership is Switzerland and their rate is .75/100K (#3 in developed countries). The data I've read shows no increase in home invasions in Australia since the weapon ban. Once again are most Australians unhappy with your weapon ban? Maybe we're not that far apart. I'm not advocating a total weapons ban, only sensible limitations on magazine size and military style rifles.

 

[Frank3]

Unfortunately its always one or two idiots with misdirected emotions , and no self control that make life so much better for everyone else !
Case in point , my Kids tell me that starting this week all the doors to the classrooms in the schools here are locked . Other than when changing classes , Someone has to escort them from room to room to let them through the doors . Kind of like prison . No movement from place to place without an approved agenda signed by a teacher , and a hall pass .
And the school Superintendent says he is grateful for the higher profile presence of the Sheriff's Office in the schools , and meetings will be held to discuss what more can be done to insure the safety of our kids .
I have VERY MIXED FEELINGS about these actions . I want my kids safe , but I already felt they were being treated as prisoners .
NO I DON"T Think Guns should be considered the root of this evil .I think their just as safe as SUVs . And even more GREEN than SUVs .
And does it really matter if there are 3 bullets or 30 bullets in a clip ? Or if the bullets come out of the gun faster or slower , or if the gun man has 1 gun or 15 ? If no one is there to challenge him ?
And what would you or any body else do if there was a gun man with 1 gun and 2 9-round clips ? jump him when he reloads ? Or maybe he'll reconsider his plan if he has to reload and apologize .

Seems to me that people are the real problem . But we're not talking about eliminating people . At least nothing has been officially announced in the EVENING NEWS . Although the internet has many conspiracies that suggest it is being considered .

Maybe the real problem is blame . Who to blame , What to blame . Obama suggested it to be FREEDOM that is to blame . " Is this the price we pay for Freedom ? "

There are just some screwed up people , for what ever reason , in this world . Can't medicate that fact away .
We will always be quick to react emotionally when kids , or pets , or anything or anyone we are supposed to be protecting and caring for is attacked . Which is what makes them targets to terrorist . And that is how I see this . An easy way to get back at , or up set as many as possible , or get the most publicity , or illicit the largest response for what ever the terrorist motivation is .

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Dave in Australia all guns were banned we were never allowed assault weapons.
Since the gun ban,true we haven't had a mass shooting but I can't remember one prior to Port Arthur which caused the ban. A fact is armed hold ups and gun crimes have increased since the ban. Suicides using guns have decreased.
Your reply is a distortion and melodramatic, look up the facts, Kenneshaw is an interesting counter point.

I guess it depends on your definition of Mass, but certainly my memory is flawed.

Clifford Bartholomew massacre - A man shot dead ten members of his family in Hope Forest near Adelaide, September 1971.
Milperra massacre - Two biker gangs, the Comanchero and the Bandidos, engaged in a shoot-out in a hotel car park, killing 7 people in 1984, including a bystander. Only one defendant was acquitted on the murder charges.
Joseph Schwab - 1987, Schwab shot dead 5 people in and around the Kimberley region in Western Australia before being shot dead by police. [2]
Hoddle Street massacre - Armed with two rifles and a shotgun, Julian Knight shot 7 people dead and wounded another 19 in 1987 before surrendering to authorities.
Queen Street massacre - Armed with a sawn-off rifle, Frank Vitkovic roamed the Australia Post building killing 8 and wounding 5, also in 1987. When the weapon was finally wrestled from him, he committed suicide by jumping out of a nearby window.
Surry Hills massacre - Paul Anthony Evers killed 5 people with a 12-gauge shotgun at a public housing precinct in Surry Hills in 1990 before surrendering to police. [3]
Strathfield massacre - In 1991 Wade Frankum killed 7 people and wounded 6 others with a large knife and an SKS before turning the gun on himself when he realised he could not escape.
Central Coast Massacre - Malcolm Baker killed 6 people and injured another with a shotgun in 1992 before being arrested by police.

 

[Keith]

Let me ask an honest question. If you attend a race track and watch the days exciting auto racing, how do you drive when you leave the circuit? Let's have your answers....QUOTE]Posted be Keith.

Keith, I drive fast, but then I always drive fast, perhaps folks who attend auto races have a higher propensity to drive fast, going in?

Perhaps folks who play and enjoy violent video games have a higher propensity for violence, going in?

My experience is that people will drive normally to a race track but come the end of the meeting, with everyone fired up on spectacle and noise, their cars will be raced or at least driven hard for at least 10 minutes. That is the result of over stimulation of the senses for even 'normal' people.

Video games can & do affect people the same way. I have an XBox 360 which I bought last year bundled with FPS games like Battlefield 3. I played half way through it once and got so sickened by the relentless 'real' violence I chucked it immediately and Battlefield 3 is by no means the goriest example, it is in fact very real.

I accept your premise that these activities will possibly attract persons already with a proclivity for violent activity (whether imaginary or acted out) but through a strong element of peer pressure, other, more sensitive types are bound to be ensnared, especially if they are insecure and lack effective parental control.

As you get older you can choose to use the 'off' switch as master in your own house, but youngsters are continually bombarded by this type of media, as their 'dollar' adds up to a very lucrative market indeed, assisted by parents who gave up parenting in exchange for the 'electronic babysitter'

 

[Keith]

Funny - it comes up for me...

Trying again....

Battlefield 3: Official Fault Line Gameplay Trailer - YouTube

Yeah works fine thanks. I've got (or had) that game. It really is horrifically real and as you say, not as gory or violent as many others. I threw it away after one play - it was so relentless in it's violence and like many similar FPS or community games of this ilk, there is no balance and no relief.

Curiously if you add up the number of 'BAD' guys you have to shoot to complete your missions, it amounts to a totally UNREAL number of deaths and unlike the gameplay, a totally unbelievable scenario. I guess if you didn't have enough shootings, the kids wouldn't be interested.

 

[Jim Craik]

Keith, I answered your question, but again you refuse to answer mine. Why?

Its very simple, if lots of guns make you safer, then the US should have the lowest gun murder rate in stead of the highest. Why aren't we safer?

Japan has virtually no guns and virtually no gun deaths, even though violent video game are very popular, Why?