Gulf Oil Rig Disaster

[Doug S.]

Doug and Jim,
You guys are like the liberal press and will defend your president with everything you have including rewriting the recent history if it supports your views. You cannot find fault with BO regardless of his mistakes, but all you can counter with is more complaints about BushII......You guys just keep stepping in time to the BO tune while the rest of the world tells it like it is.........Why do you keep making excuses for this guy when he has been in charge for 18 months? Its time to quit blaming the other guys and hold him accountable for his own mistakes.
Garry

Garry, I'll do my best to answer your questions--

First, I do not consider myself liberal, nor do I consider myself conservative, I feel I am middle of the road. I have not tried to rewrite history, as your "inflamatory" assertion would seem to suggest, and I certainly can find fault with Bee-OH's actions. For example, I think Arizona is spot on with their new law requiring police to question the citizenship status of people whom they have reason to believe might be here as immigrants (note that I did not distinguish between legal and illegal, hispanic or oriental, I think it's a good idea to question EVERY person whom they believe might not be U.S. citizens). I believe he is wrong to have failed in his charge to ensure that our borders are adequately protected from unwanted intrusion. I do not expect him to stand there with an automatic rifle, but have stated consistently that I believe that the government, admittedly under Bee-OH's leadership, has failed to act in a responsible manner and in fact believe that their most recent action, the lawsuit challenging Arizona's new law, is one of the most assinine actions I've ever seen come out of a Presidential office.

It is not just Jim and I who are attempting to represent the centrist, or even the left of center, position.....nor it is "...the rest of the world" that is telling it like it is. YOU believe they (and you) are telling it like it is, because you BELIEVE that what you are hearing from your radical right wing sources really IS the way it is. At least Pat/2124 has the fortitude to admit that he listens to Fox News b/c his attitudes are in line with the obviously conservative "lean" that Fox News presents. I'd suggest you might well look a bit more reasonable in this issue if you'd consider admitting the same, whether you want to change your sources or not.

I'm making no excuses for Bee-OH (in fact, you may notice that I'm the only one who refers to him as "Bee-OH"....perhaps you're too old to remember the deodorant commercial in which "Bee-OH" is phrased and voiced much like a fog-horn and meant to refer to "Bee (body)-OH (odor)"--I think many of his actions STINK, hence the body odor reference). He can and does make his own excuses, some of which I buy, many of which I don't. Sure, he's been in charge for 18 months, but many of the things haunting him were enacted by the previous "radical-right" leaning administration (such as the tax cuts that benefit primarily the rich, which are due to expire soon), have been counterproductive, and Bee-OH will surely act to remedy those hindrances at the appropriate times. "The other guys", as you so have so generously referred to them, ARE responsible for many of the issues that are hamstringing Bee-OH. Your post would lead me to believe that you believe the previous administration could do no wrong and that Bee-OH has done no right.....nothing could be further from the truth in either case. This is not an issue of black and white, there are too many "grey" areas.....

In finishing, I would suggest that the radical-right has acted with blinders on, and there is truth in that old saying "There are none so blind as those who will not see". If all you are reading and believing is the propoganda put out by the radical right, perhaps you might consider opening your eyes and seeing that there is logic in some of the things others believe.

Doug

 

[Jim Craik]

Doug,

Once again, very well said!

 

[Keith]

Hey guys, may I just comment (as the original thread starter) that my post was never intended to become a minefield of politics, attitudes or opinions - just a human response to a serious event that has happened and was thus a fait accomplis.

I reckon if all the energy directed towards 'blame' had been diverted towards a solution, we would not be in this situation now.

I spent my whole life in the field of public entertainment and ensuring people had a safe and enjoyable night out. Sometimes you cannot forsee stupid actions or a unique and unusual combination of critical events that culminate in death, injury, or in this case 'pollution'. But, sometimes when 'unforseeable' situations occur - we learn, and the future becomes just that little bit safer.

I have been quite saddened by the race to condemn whether it be BP, the US Government or even the residents of the Gulf Shores.

No-one ever foresaw any of this, and to be quite fair I can't think anyone ever wanted it. The repercusssions are going to be very severe for all parties and lessons (I hope) will be learned.

PLease remember the guys that lost their lives trying to fulfill the world's greed for oil.

You cannot second guess this shit.

I missed the post about Trueman Jim. I am a very passionate student of Military History as I believe that sometimes War is inevitable for a number of reasons that are not relevant here - and there is no finer lesson to be learned about our fellow humans than studying their reactions in war scenarios.

I take it from your answer to a statement or question I haven't yet found that Truman was (probably) wrong in his decision to deploy the bomb?

I totally disagree - considering a) it was (and is) the only atomic device (as yet) ever deployed for very good reason and b) there is absolutely no way that taking the Japanese Homelands could have been taken without vast loss of lives on both sides. Russians? Don't make me laugh. The only reasons the Russians attacked is because they thought they could get some easy pickings at the last moment.

The Bomb stopped everyone in their tracks - even the Russians (who had spies at Los Alamos during the entire process) and war was never going to be the same ever again.

I will say that in my opinion Japan was an already beaten force before the US even deployed the bomb but that the REAL target was the hearts and minds of the (then) Politburo.

Personally I take no joy at the 000,s of inncocents that lost their lives in the Nuclear Holocaust both at the time and subsequently and very painfully in that awful attack but I take my hat off to Truman for taking that step, as we have been (largely) safe ever since. He had the balls. Would that a modern leader could be as tough...

Please, do not judge historical events with the benefits of historical 20/20 hindsight.

If you want to debate Nuclear issues please start another thread...

And now, back to the Gulf.

PS I have learned so much from this site - and the GT40 stuff is such a bounus!

 

[TimB]

Regarding the Jones act once the oil was recovered and onboard would that be considered cargo since it does have value and is capable of being refined?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Thanks Chris

Al, no one needs to feel sory for me, I'm the luckiest guy on earth!

I'm happy for you!

 

[Ian K]

Regarding the Jones act once the oil was recovered and onboard would that be considered cargo since it does have value and is capable of being refined?

I don't believe so. The Jones Act covers the transport of passengers and goods between US ports. Slurping up oil in the gulf would not be considered port to port.

Ian

 

[Garry]

Doug,
I just don't understand from what I wrote that you sense there is a right-wing leaning in my statements.
What I have said in every thread is that there has been dumb decisions by every administration since the Republic was formed. No president has been perfect, period. Most of us agree on that truth. The question is did Obama drag his heels on the Gulf Oil response and the general consensus is that he did.
Personally, I don't blame him if he took a few days to respond. After all we,the American People, are paying for a huge bureaucracy that is supposed to take care of disasters. How's that working for us?! For what it's worth, I felt the same thing about Bush's response to Katrina. Everyone Blames the President, but the real culprit is the Federal Response teams. If we were getting our money's worth from these departments, we wouldn't need a Chief Executive to step in and run the show. I am sure Obama's and Bush's responses took time because each one of them had the temerity to believe that the Federal Government and his own cabinet ministers was on the job. They weren't and they still aren't.
If anyone wants to be outraged, be mad at the stupid salaried rank and file leaders that we hire in the Federal Bureaucracy; the ones that can't find their asses with a road map.


How's that for equeal ranting to both right and left wing issues Doug?

What I was pointing out to Jim and you( occasionally) is that you should not defend dumb mistakes no matter who is in office ,OR, you should defend them all from ridicule since both Republican and Democratic presidents have made some seriously stupid policy desicions while in office. These guys have also had their moments when they did somethings right as well. IMHO!
Garry

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

That's what I've tried to say, neither side is right all of the time, and they are wrong at times. The problem is knowing when to admit a mistake. I was wrong once!

 

[Jim Craik]

What I was pointing out to Jim and you( occasionally) is that you should not defend dumb mistakes no matter who is in office ,OR, you should defend them all from ridicule since both Republican and Democratic presidents have made some seriously stupid policy desicions while in office. These guys have also had their moments when they did somethings right as well. IMHO!
Garry<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Garry,

Absolutlly, call me out if I defend a dumb disigion, thats not my intention. You are absolutly right both sides do and say dumb things. If someone calls one side on somthing they did, great, but if they only blast one side and they are wrong we should all call them on it.

To be fair, most of the "look how stupid the other side is" stuff comes from only one side but its wrong were ever it comes from.

 

[Jim Craik]

Al, in fairness give us an example of when you said the right was wrong.

 

[Doug S.]

I was wrong once!

I thought I was wrong once, too......but upon further reflection, I realized I was simply mistaken :thumbsup: !!

Cheers from Doug!

 

[Jim Craik]

Jeez guys my wife will tell you I'm wrong all the time.

 

[Jim Craik]

The question is did Obama drag his heels on the Gulf Oil response and the general consensus is that he did. Personally, I don't blame him if he took a few days to respond. After all we,the American People, are paying for a huge bureaucracy that is supposed to take care of disasters. How's that working for us?!

posted by Garry.

Garry,

There are some things our governemt does very well and others not so much.

The part of the federal governent that is tasked with resonding to disasters worked very well and very fast. Right from the first explosion the Coast Guard was on it. These brave sailors helped to rescue who they could and searched for the missing for days. There was no heel dragging!

The part of the government that did not work so well was our Oil Well Blowout Responce Team. Oh yes, thats right we do not have one! Should we have one is another question for another day.

One thing our government is fairly good at is helping to save people in times of need. Which is why everyone was so supprised as the slow respone to Katrina.

Now that said I'm sure that many of Obamas later disigions were late or wrong, and hopefully we will learn from this but to say "huge burocracy" failed is somewhat disengenuous.

Additionally in 1989 when the Exxon Valldeas spilled oil all over Alaska, I do not recall the right wing media getting all upset by the Bush administrations total lack of responce, slow or otherwise.

Garry, why do you think these same people who are now so outraged did not care then?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Gee Al, what if the dislecsic kid does not know how to make the spell checker work?

Jim if you download the Google tool bar you will find a spell check on it. All you need do is click on ABC Check and it will highlight errors and offer suggestions.
Although it annoys me by using z when s is correct English.

 

[Jim Craik]

Thanks Pete, I did try that but it tells me I need to download "iespell" from some web site and as of now this is beyond my skill set but I'll keep trying.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al, in fairness give us an example of when you said the right was wrong.

Re: I want a divorce!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheney scared the hell out of me. I think GW was easily led at times. I by no means think he was a good president, but at times I think he got a bad rap.

 

[Jim Craik]

Thank you Al, you know my friend, I think we have finally agreed on something!

 

[Jim Craik]

Al,

I was very optimistic when Obama was first in office, I was hoping for someone just might be special, better and usual. I have not given up hope, the jury is still out but I'm a little less optomistic. Fair enough.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

I was very optimistic when Obama was first in office, I was hoping for someone just might be special, better and usual. I have not given up hope, the jury is still out but I'm a little less optomistic. Fair enough.

I think most of America was hopeful, but it just seems like one big push to expand the government. I would like as little government as possible in my life, I started working summers when I was 12 years old and haven't needed government help in my life, and don't want it. But it's getting bigger and bigger. At some point if this continues there will be two classes in America, workers and leaders/rich.

 

[domtoni]

Amazing how much stuff appears when one has to run a few errands.

Let me try to address each:
Doug - Also, I must respectfully disagree in regard to your last comment.....Gee-DUB still looks like a buffoon to many of us who have to endure him in the U.S
- Yes Gee - Dub didn't look good, but as I see it: a) the US was safe from serious terrorist attacks, b) peopled were employed and paying taxes, c) the world economy had pretty well recovered from 9/11 d) we were in two wars, Afghanistan, and Iraq



Ian - At 15 ppm contamination, that means for every 1 Gallon in 15 Million gallons of oil in the Gulf for the skimmers and the EPA held off. I have to believe that the skimmers would do a better job than just letting oil gush uncontrolled into the Gulf.

I just found this in my search about the Whale, the Taiwanese skimmer brought into work.

'A Whale' Ineffective in Cleaning Up Gulf Spill (from Fox News)
After a lengthy trial period in the Gulf of Mexico, a Taiwanese-owned giant skimming vessel known as “A Whale” was dubbed a bust, a federal official announced Friday.

"While its stature is impressive, 'A Whale' is not ideally suited to the needs of this response," Coast Guard Rear Admiral Paul Zunkunft, a federal on-scene coordinator, said in a statement late Friday.

Measuring an impressive 1,110 feet, the tanker was brought to the Gulf in early July. Officials hoped it would meet is potential of collecting as many as 500,000 barrels of contaminated water per day and make a dent in the 184.3 million gallons of crude oil that have already leaked from BP’s broken oil well.

However after weeks of tests, “A Whale” collected only negligible amounts of oil, leading to the conclusion that smaller skimming vessels are better suited for the Gulf spill.

"It may need a different type of oil spill, where you have thick, heavy oil that is concentrated in order to be effective," Zunkunft said of the giant skimmer’s capabilities.

The official site monitoring the Deepwater Horizon response says that more than 6,800 vessels ranging from recovery vessels to barges are currently operating in the Gulf. So far almost 33 million gallons of mixed oil and water mix have been recovered, and 387 controlled burns have been conducted to remove a further 11 million gallons of oil from open waters.

No mention of when the foreign ships came into help, as the ref date is 15 june, almost 60 days after the disaster.

Jim, Truman and the bomb - as it was said later by … our vision is always clear with 20/20 hindsight. My whole point was to say we can't judge an event today without understanding the information that was available at the time, however sometimes a person in responsibility cannot continually ask for studies before making a decision. You have to make decisions on what is better and accept that you may be sometimes wrong.

As I stated earlier, its about decision / indecision - why did it take so long?

Keith, I put the Truman sentence into one of my posts a page or two back. Take a look.

Now, when are we all going out for a beer?