What do you guys think of this - http://aeromotions.com/products/s-series/ ? The idea has always intrigued me, but I think this one looks a little small and wouldn't work very well until over about 100 MPH.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Dynamic wing - what do you think?
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I can see the more obvious advantage of the full active wing, but I'm not sure about the split wing;
I can see that it would improve left right balance in a corner, however, the majority of load is still carried on the outside wheel.
If you put on a full wing, you get additional downforce on both sides, if you split the wing and de-activate the outside, you only get additional downforce on the inside. So compared to the full wing, you have halved overall downforce, but improved left right balance.
So for this to work, left right balance has to be more important than downforce on the outside. Before I became a believer I need to be convinced that this is true, or that I haven't got it and there is a flaw in my logic.
Anybody agree / disagree with what I'm saying? Is the balance more effective in cornering?
I can see that it would improve left right balance in a corner, however, the majority of load is still carried on the outside wheel.
If you put on a full wing, you get additional downforce on both sides, if you split the wing and de-activate the outside, you only get additional downforce on the inside. So compared to the full wing, you have halved overall downforce, but improved left right balance.
So for this to work, left right balance has to be more important than downforce on the outside. Before I became a believer I need to be convinced that this is true, or that I haven't got it and there is a flaw in my logic.
Anybody agree / disagree with what I'm saying? Is the balance more effective in cornering?
Active aero devices can win races when done properly (ask Jim Hall) - but I know of no sanctioning bodies that allow them any longer. That's not to say that they are not allow on tracks, just not in the W2W groups that I am familiar with.
I would not want something going on the fritz whilst deep in a corner at high speed carrying a lot of G's..
Besides - I think leverage has something to do with it here..
If the wing is split in the center and expected to offer more/less downforce on one side or the other - Shouldn't there be a center mount where the split is?
Is there a difference in leverage from outside of the mounting leg to the inside of the leg when split?
Makes the mind start working to early in the AM and not enough coffee...
I would not want something going on the fritz whilst deep in a corner at high speed carrying a lot of G's..
Besides - I think leverage has something to do with it here..
If the wing is split in the center and expected to offer more/less downforce on one side or the other - Shouldn't there be a center mount where the split is?
Is there a difference in leverage from outside of the mounting leg to the inside of the leg when split?
Makes the mind start working to early in the AM and not enough coffee...
This would be for the Track Days guys and the ricer/tuners.
I would think you would want the mount over the wheel to "push down" on the inboard wheel, rather than "twist" the whole car.
Whenever you increase downforce, you increase effective weight, so you must increase spring rates to compensate. You have to run enough spring to be able to control the maximum effective weight of the weight of the car PLUS the downforce of the aero effects. As lateral g's increase, more and more weight is transferred to the outside wheel. So that means that the total weight on the outside wheel could be as high as 1.5 times the weight of that whole end of the car PLUS the downforce of the entire aero device (wing). Increasing downforce on the inside wheel only makes it so you don't have to increase overall spring rate.
This also would have the effect of lowering the sway bar rate, because less weight is tranferred laterally as a proportion to total weight.
"If you put on a full wing, you get additional downforce on both sides, if you split the wing and de-activate the outside, you only get additional downforce on the inside. So compared to the full wing, you have halved overall downforce, but improved left right balance."
Actually you could double the rake on the inside and achieve the same aero drag and total downforce, just having it where you want it.
"Whenever you increase downforce, you increase effective weight, so you must increase spring rates to compensate. You have to run enough spring to be able to control the maximum effective weight of the weight of the car PLUS the downforce of the aero effects."
I'm not sure you have to increase spring rates as the total downforce + the effective rate of the car at speed where the wing is creating significant downforce is most likely always going to be less than the total weight of the vehicle at rest.
The science is valid for a split wing design and properly set up with a skilled driver you could lower lap times. However, set-up is key and the setup would be different on each and every track and I would guess be very tricky and tedious.
Best,
Ron
Actually you could double the rake on the inside and achieve the same aero drag and total downforce, just having it where you want it.
"Whenever you increase downforce, you increase effective weight, so you must increase spring rates to compensate. You have to run enough spring to be able to control the maximum effective weight of the weight of the car PLUS the downforce of the aero effects."
I'm not sure you have to increase spring rates as the total downforce + the effective rate of the car at speed where the wing is creating significant downforce is most likely always going to be less than the total weight of the vehicle at rest.
The science is valid for a split wing design and properly set up with a skilled driver you could lower lap times. However, set-up is key and the setup would be different on each and every track and I would guess be very tricky and tedious.
Best,
Ron
Active wings aren't allowed in any racing that I know of.
And, if you were to use an active split wing, best to have it mounted directly to the rear hubs rather than the body or chassis - so as to not increase the effective weight as Brian wisely points out above.
What I find more interesting is "passive movement" wings. In other words, wings that aren't mechanically actuated, rather they move based upon controlled flexing of the wing structure and surface depending on speed and degree of downforce. Obviously, you want the downforce in a slow speed turns and braking in the approaches, but you don't necessarily want the same degree of downforce (=drag) down the main straight. A wing that flexes in a controlled fashion depending upon speed is a pretty ingenious thing.
And, if you were to use an active split wing, best to have it mounted directly to the rear hubs rather than the body or chassis - so as to not increase the effective weight as Brian wisely points out above.
What I find more interesting is "passive movement" wings. In other words, wings that aren't mechanically actuated, rather they move based upon controlled flexing of the wing structure and surface depending on speed and degree of downforce. Obviously, you want the downforce in a slow speed turns and braking in the approaches, but you don't necessarily want the same degree of downforce (=drag) down the main straight. A wing that flexes in a controlled fashion depending upon speed is a pretty ingenious thing.
Yes! Might be able to get away with it in amateur racing....at least for a while....until some race official looks at it in the bino's on the front straight and sees it laying down flat.....
Hi, this is Greg from Aeromotions.
Let me help you out a little with this. Active rear wings are legal in F1 this year, so you'll be seeing more of them around.
The S2 controls downforce and balance. On a straightaway, the wing decreases angle to reduce drag, just like the F1 movable wings
Under braking, the wing increases angle of attack to provide more downforce. Since braking causes inherent forward weight transfer, adding a lot of downforce helps balance, stability, and stopping G's.
Then when you enter a turn, the wing reduces angle of attack to provide the correct amount of downforce to balance the front aero. If it didn't, you'd get a high speed aero push.
As for the results, the dynamics wings are typically worth 2 seconds off a two minute lap. Over the years of racing, they've proven to be the most reliable part of the car.
The split wing is about weight transfer. When you turn, you generally can't use all the wing (or you'll get that aero push). So, the inside wing half goes up, and the outside down. The front / back balance is maintained, but now weight is transfered inward.
Here's a pic of the F430 Challenge car development, in the 180mph rolling road wind tunnel. Questions are welcome.
Let me help you out a little with this. Active rear wings are legal in F1 this year, so you'll be seeing more of them around.
The S2 controls downforce and balance. On a straightaway, the wing decreases angle to reduce drag, just like the F1 movable wings
Under braking, the wing increases angle of attack to provide more downforce. Since braking causes inherent forward weight transfer, adding a lot of downforce helps balance, stability, and stopping G's.
Then when you enter a turn, the wing reduces angle of attack to provide the correct amount of downforce to balance the front aero. If it didn't, you'd get a high speed aero push.
As for the results, the dynamics wings are typically worth 2 seconds off a two minute lap. Over the years of racing, they've proven to be the most reliable part of the car.
The split wing is about weight transfer. When you turn, you generally can't use all the wing (or you'll get that aero push). So, the inside wing half goes up, and the outside down. The front / back balance is maintained, but now weight is transfered inward.
Here's a pic of the F430 Challenge car development, in the 180mph rolling road wind tunnel. Questions are welcome.
Thanks for the reply. You will enjoy this forum. I think the split wing concept is legitimate because, as you say, you are moving the aero effects laterally instead of longitudinally. You need the longitudinal affects under braking, however.
I guess I'm a little concerned about the size of the wing at slalom course speeds having any aero effect at all.
Have you ever actually measured the downforce on one side at various speeds?
I guess I'm a little concerned about the size of the wing at slalom course speeds having any aero effect at all.
Have you ever actually measured the downforce on one side at various speeds?
Ah, there is a misunderstanding in this thread. The wing also pitches up under braking. It does both things you mentioned. Only in turning, when you can't effectively use all that downforce, does the wing split.
Pro drivers will consistently shed .2 seconds on a two-minute lap with the split feature. In a race, .2 seconds is eternity. General track enthusiasts won't be able to take full advantage of the benefit. But hey, that's the same with the JRZ 4-way shocks, ceramic rotors, etc.
When you watch F1 this year, the effectiveness of active aero will become clear. We've been making these wings for years, and people who haven't driven them always have a had a hard time seeing the magnitude of the benefit. F1 is about to change that. The wings are under full driver control for qualifying. You're about so see some serious aero, on TV, with pro drivers. Who's bringing the popcorn?
Greg
Sorry, but I am having trouble following your numbers: in your first post, you said it is worth 2 seconds a lap and in the second post, you state .2 seconds a lap.
I would think that if the car is set up to utilize the wing, two seconds in a two minute lap would be easily achievable once the driver got used to the additional variables
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I would think that if the car is set up to utilize the wing, two seconds in a two minute lap would be easily achievable once the driver got used to the additional variables
.Sorry, but I am having trouble following your numbers: in your first post, you said it is worth 2 seconds a lap and in the second post, you state .2 seconds a lap.
I would think that if the car is set up to utilize the wing, two seconds in a two minute lap would be easily achievable once the driver got used to the additional variables
There are three main wing angles: Straightaway, Cornering, and Braking. Adding that active wing drops 2 seconds on average. Adding the split cornering (which you can toggle on and off) is worth another .2 seconds.
Every driver can take advantage of the three main wing angles. They make a HUGE difference to the feel and stability of the vehicle. If you're driving 7/10ths, you can feel it. If your doing 9 - 10 tenths, the value of the split starts to show up in the data.
Greg
Anything?
They didn't use them at LeMans and won! $7000.00 and change. Looks cool but at that price I dunno.
Yeah, at 145mph, a The F430 can transfer 187lbs side to side. It's entirely dependent on the car, and the setup. So you can't port that number onto another car.
The single piece, R2.TWO carbon wing is $3,650. It's not for mid engine cars like the GT40, however, but works on GTR's, EVO's, Corvettes, etc.
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