"The great communicator" doing his thing...

Keith

Moderator
Reagan and Thatcher = Force Majeure.

I have no doubt that between them - they were they final spikes in the heart of Communism and the Collective Society, you know - the Ones with Nothing who want to Share it With Everybody (in theory).

You'll not see the like of either of them again.

Good find thanks - I liked him. Many in the UK did not especially the left leaning ones, but I guess that's not a surprise.

The question is, what do Americans think of his legacy in hindsight?
 

Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Like everything else regarding him, what his legacy IS depends on the eye of the beholder.

But IMHO your stmt, "Reagan and Thatcher = Force Majeure", for anyone with a brain that functions normally anyway, pretty much says it all, sir. ;)
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
I feel that Reagan was the worst President in My lifetime, he was nothing but a typical, tax and spend deficit busting Republican. Here are 10 reasons.......

1. Reagan was a serial tax raiser. As governor of California, Reagan “signed into law the largest tax increase in the history of any state up till then.” Meanwhile, state spending nearly doubled. As president, Reagan “raised taxes in seven of his eight years in office,” including four times in just two years. As former GOP Senator Alan Simpson, who called Reagan “a dear friend,” told NPR, “Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times in his administration — I was there.” “Reagan was never afraid to raise taxes,” said historian Douglas Brinkley, who edited Reagan’s memoir. Reagan the anti-tax zealot is “false mythology,” Brinkley said.
2. Reagan nearly tripled the federal budget deficit. During the Reagan years, the debt increased to nearly $3 trillion, “roughly three times as much as the first 80 years of the century had done altogether.” Reagan enacted a major tax cut his first year in office and government revenue dropped off precipitously. Despite the conservative myth that tax cuts somehow increase revenue, the government went deeper into debt and Reagan had to raise taxes just a year after he enacted his tax cut. Despite ten more tax hikes on everything from gasoline to corporate income, Reagan was never able to get the deficit under control.
3. Unemployment soared after Reagan’s 1981 tax cuts. Unemployment jumped to 10.8 percent after Reagan enacted his much-touted tax cut, and it took years for the rate to get back down to its previous level. Meanwhile, income inequality exploded. Despite the myth that Reagan presided over an era of unmatched economic boom for all Americans, Reagan disproportionately taxed the poor and middle class, but the economic growth of the 1980′s did little help them. “Since 1980, median household income has risen only 30 percent, adjusted for inflation, while average incomes at the top have tripled or quadrupled,” the New York Times’ David Leonhardt noted.
4. Reagan grew the size of the federal government tremendously. Reagan promised “to move boldly, decisively, and quickly to control the runaway growth of federal spending,” but federal spending “ballooned” under Reagan. He bailed out Social Security in 1983 after attempting to privatize it, and set up a progressive taxation system to keep it funded into the future. He promised to cut government agencies like the Department of Energy and Education but ended up adding one of the largest — the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, which today has a budget of nearly $90 billion and close to 300,000 employees. He also hiked defense spending by over $100 billion a year to a level not seen since the height of the Vietnam war.
5. Reagan did little to fight a woman’s right to choose. As governor of California in 1967, Reagan signed a bill to liberalize the state’s abortion laws that “resulted in more than a million abortions.” When Reagan ran for president, he advocated a constitutional amendment that would have prohibited all abortions except when necessary to save the life of the mother, but once in office, he “never seriously pursued” curbing choice.
6. Reagan was a “bellicose peacenik.” He wrote in his memoirs that “[m]y dream…became a world free of nuclear weapons.” “This vision stemmed from the president’s belief that the biblical account of Armageddon prophesied nuclear war — and that apocalypse could be averted if everyone, especially the Soviets, eliminated nuclear weapons,” the Washington Monthly noted. And Reagan’s military buildup was meant to crush the Soviet Union, but “also to put the United States in a stronger position from which to establish effective arms control” for the the entire world — a vision acted out by Regean’s vice president, George H.W. Bush, when he became president.
7. Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million undocumented immigrants. Reagan signed into law a bill that made any immigrant who had entered the country before 1982 eligible for amnesty. The bill was sold as a crackdown, but its tough sanctions on employers who hired undocumented immigrants were removed before final passage. The bill helped 3 million people and millions more family members gain American residency. It has since become a source of major embarrassment for conservatives.
8. Reagan illegally funneled weapons to Iran. Reagan and other senior U.S. officials secretly sold arms to officials in Iran, which was subject to a an arms embargo at the time, in exchange for American hostages. Some funds from the illegal arms sales also went to fund anti-Communist rebels in Nicaragua — something Congress had already prohibited the administration from doing. When the deals went public, the Iran-Contra Affair, as it came to be know, was an enormous political scandal that forced several senior administration officials to resign.
9. Reagan vetoed a comprehensive anti-Apartheid act. which placed sanctions on South Africa and cut off all American trade with the country. Reagan’s veto was overridden by the Republican-controlled Senate. Reagan responded by saying “I deeply regret that Congress has seen fit to override my veto,” saying that the law “will not solve the serious problems that plague that country.”
10. Reagan helped create the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. Reagan fought a proxy war with the Soviet Union by training, arming, equipping, and funding Islamist mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan. Reagan funneled billions of dollars, along with top-secret intelligence and sophisticated weaponry to these fighters through the Pakistani intelligence service. The Talbian and Osama Bin Laden — a prominent mujahidin commander — emerged from these mujahidin groups Reagan helped create, and U.S. policy towards Pakistan remains strained because of the intelligence services’ close relations to these fighters. In fact, Reagan’s decision to continue the proxy war after the Soviets were willing to retreat played a direct role in Bin Laden’s ascendancy.
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Like I said......................

Just out of curiosity, what's your source there, Jim - moveon.org?
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Larry,

Rather than attacking the messanger, why don't you address the 10 points.

Are any of them untrue?

I'll add an 11th point.

For some reason Reagan sent US Marines to Lebanon, A suicide bomber drove a truck bomb into their barracks, killing hundreds. What did the geat Reagan do?

He immediately pulled our troops out of Lebanon, proving to all of the Middle East the terrorist bombings work just as intended!

We have been living with that Reagan legacy ever since.
 
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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Jim, rather than dodge the question, who's your source?

Link?

Larry I got them from the internet. I lived in California when he was Governer and I was aware of all these non-consevative things he did, this group of 10 points seems to present them is a easy to understand package.

Are any of the 11 points not true?
 
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Keith

Moderator
I would have absolutely bet the farm on that reply.

Ignoring Google, how did his Presidency affect you personally?

I cannot judge on Reagan as he is (or was) a foreigner, but if someone asked me what I thought of Margaret Thatcher, I would NOT have to Google for an answer, plus, any answer I gave would not be based on anything that didn't affect me personally. That is the way to judge people - not on another's hearsay.

Let's try this. Remembering that I am the Great Anti American and your are The Great American Patriot" or so you say, If I had said "Ronald Reagan was actually a shit President and a bad American," would you have agreed with me?

Think very carefully before you reply.

Also, you made the rules and so Google is a tool that works both ways. For example, on a proper debating site:

Was Ronald Reagan a good president? | Debate.org
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
If it makes you feel any better, I'll put them in my words.

(1) Reagan raised taxes 11 times!

(2) Reagan almost trippled the Federal budget deficit!

(3) Unemployment reached 10.8 percent under Reagan, higher than Obama.

(4) Reagan grew the size of government more than any president except BushII.

(5) Reagan signed a bill that liberalized CA abortion law.

(6) Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million undocumented alians!

(7) Reagan illegally gave weapons to Iran!

(8) Reagan vetoed an Anti-Apartheid bill, his veto was overturned by the Republican controlled Senate.

(9) Reagan armed the Taliban!

(10) Reagan proved to all that terrorist bombings work!

Larry are my points true?
 
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Keith

Moderator
Truman authorised the use of the Atomic Bomb in Japan which directly led to the deaths of 200,000 civilians in under 2 minutes and an agonising slow death for another several hundred thousand including horrendous genetic disorders still evident today, oh, and the destruction of a Mitsubishi factory.

Does that make him a good or bad President?
 

Keith

Moderator
Jim, are you seriously telling me that any US president is aware of exactly what the CIA does in his name?
 

Keith

Moderator
Nothing at all wrong with your point 5 my man.

Point 6. Every President I remember has had an amnesty. It just makes sense so that they can start paying tax!

Your point 10 isn't a point. It's a slogan.

That's all I have time to scan before going to bed.

But i'll have another look tomorrow.

Your list seems disingenuous to say the list, but you know more about him than I do to be fair.

I liked him from a foreigners perspective. He exhibited authority, a steely resolve and yet could still tell a joke.

Would that present day political wimps get even close to his stature in that regard.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Your point 10 isn't a point. It's a slogan.
Keith

(10) Reagan proved to all that terrorist bombings work!


For some reason Reagan sent US Marines to Lebanon, A suicide bomber drove a truck bomb into their barracks, killing hundreds. What did the geat Reagan do?

He immediately pulled our troops out of Lebanon, proving to all of the Middle East the terrorist bombings work just as intended!

We have been living with that Reagan legacy ever since.
 

Keith

Moderator
Keith

(10) Reagan proved to all that terrorist bombings work!


For some reason Reagan sent US Marines to Lebanon, A suicide bomber drove a truck bomb into their barracks, killing hundreds. What did the geat Reagan do?

He immediately pulled our troops out of Lebanon, proving to all of the Middle East the terrorist bombings work just as intended!

We have been living with that Reagan legacy ever since.

Sure but haven't we got a "Get out of Afghanistan" movement now? Do the American people want your people in Afghanistan?

I realise that you are engaged in a relatively popular war of vengeance but, although I have no proof, if you polled the US public they would have wanted Troops Out of everywhere you've been as soon as the body bags start being delivered. The legacy of Vietnam still rings very fresh in a lot of people's minds.

I cannot fathom why Regan took that action in Lebanon, but in hindsight, was it such a bad decision remembering that 9/11 hadn't happened at that point and the Hawks seem determined to poke their oar in everywhere since? Perhaps to get their 'face' back?

I subscribe to the view that all heads of Govt are ultimately responsible yes, but their unelected anonymous 'advisors' both military and civilian have, in reality, much more to answer for.

Somalia I think was a bigger humiliation for US military forces under Bush 1 and it can be argued that that was a far bigger morale boost to the bad guys that the pinprick Lebanon represented. (No disrespect inteneded to any relatives of those who lost their lives in either campaign - goes without saying)
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Larry,

These words are mine!

(1) Reagan raised taxes 11 times!

(2) Reagan almost tripled the Federal budget deficit!

(3) Unemployment reached 10.8 percent under Reagan, higher than Obama.

(4) Reagan grew the size of government more than any president except BushII.

(5) Reagan signed a bill that liberalized CA abortion law.

(6) Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million undocumented alians!

(7) Reagan illegally sold weapons to Iran!

(8) Reagan vetoed an Anti-Apartheid bill, his veto was overturned by the Republican controlled Senate.

(9) Reagan armed the Taliban!

(10) Reagan proved to all that terrorist bombings used against US targets work!

(11) Reagan was a strong supporter of the Brady Bill, the last major Federal gun control law!

****************

If the Great Ronald Reagan ran for President today, he would have to run as a Democrat. With a record like this he could not win even one Republican primary election!

Yes, the Republican Party has gone so far to the right that Reagan would have no chance today, yet you continue to trot him out as the Great Conservative!

****************

Larry rather than using the standard cop-out and attack the messenger, lets talk about the message...................

Are any of the things I said about Reagan untrue?
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
Quit playing dumb, Jim. Reread posts 7, 8, & 17. I ASKED YOU TO NAME THE SOURCE wherein you got the talking points contained in your post #4 and I asked for a link to same.

I'm pretty sure its going to turn out to be some far left 'smear' site...
 
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