A theory about running without air cleaners.

When I assembled my engine, I made a conscious decision to use trumpets without air cleaners. There was no major academic argument behind my decision. I simply liked the look, the sound and the potential extra ponies.

The drawback of coarse is that there is no protection against any solid contaminants that might find their way into the combustion chamber. My reasoning there however was that it would be a simple matter of calculating (or estimating) the increase in the resultant engine abrasion and be prepared to live with the reduction in engine life (as long as no large objects find their way down a trumpet). Based on other people’s experience I estimated about a 4:1 increase in abrasion and was more than happy to live with that since the car would not accumulate too may miles over the years anyway.

Eighteen months and 15,000 km down the track, I now have some interesting experiences to report that I didn’t consider when making my original decision.

I recently had the misfortune to blow an inlet manifold gasket (between the coolant jacket and port number four). This caused an enormous amount of coolant to be pumped directly into one of the chambers, creating a big cloud of steam behind the car. It is probably worthwhile mentioning at this point however that the car had been pinging and backfiring at an ever increasing rate over the past month or so, no amount of tuning of which could rectify the problem. Needless to say, I decided not to drive the car any further until the fault was rectified.

For reasons that were beyond my control and not worth going into here, the car was left at a friend’s farm for one week before I was in a position to be able to trailer it home. A week later (and allowing for the fact that one of the cylinders would still be drinking coolant) I decided to start the engine so that I could drive the car onto the trailer. This turned out not to be as simple as we had assumed. Not only did the engine refuse to start, but it also began to pop and bang and throw large flames out of the left exhaust. After lots of discussion and few ideas we decided to try again a few minutes later. No better. In fact it just got worse with each try. We stopped trying after the exhaust gave a very large bang and continued to burn a flame for a few seconds after we stopped. The car was then put on the trailer by other means and brought home.

Shortly after the car finally arrived home, the inlet manifold was removed (discovering the original gasket problem) as were the heads, in an attempt to locate the cause of the violent misfires. I didn’t know what to expect. Why would it run OK one week earlier and so badly a week later? Expecting to maybe see a burnt valve or even a hole in a piston, I instead saw an engine in reasonably good condition except for a very large (and I mean VERY large) buildup of carbon in all cylinders except cylinder 4.

Since time was a precious commodity for me at the time, I decided to leave the job for a week and sprayed all the cylinder bores with CRC to inhibit any likely corrosion.

Returning to the job a week later I found that the CRC had not only protected engine, but it had also dissolved much of the carbon off the bores and pistons. It had been explained to me in the past that it is generally not a good idea to clean the carbon off the pistons because you invariably leave some crusty bits in and around the rings causing more harm than good. Having inadvertently already started the carbon cleanup I decided to complete the job to clinically clean standards.

Having found no other real issues with the engine, I decided to re-assemble it and try to reproduce the backfiring in my workshop. One re-assembled engine later, the engine was cranked over and it immediately burst into life, smooth as I had ever heard it. Having left it to idle for 15 mins and given it a few good revs, I decided it wasn’t going to fall back to its old problem, so the car was consequently driven out of the garage and down the road… smooth as a baby’s bottom. Even the pinging and popping that had been plaguing me in the past was gone.

Car now fixed, I decided to take it for a long drive with no further signs of the problem.

Conclusion (just my theory):
Seems that there are two types of air contaminants, mineral and organic. The mineral contaminants are probably happy to get sucked in, bounce around the combustion chamber for a while and then leave out of the exhaust. The organic contaminants however enter the combustion chamber burn and stick to whatever they can. This eventually creates a significant carbon buildup which results in an increase in compression ratio, hence the pinging. This buildup however does have its limitations. Eventually it will break loose into relatively large pieces and bounce around the chamber until it occasionally finds an open exhaust valve and temporarily wedges itself into it. At this point we have an open valve at the moment of combustion, so causing the popping.

So what caused the large flames back at the farm I still wondered? Well my final theory is based on the fact that there was very little carbon buildup in cylinder four. This must mean that the carbon had to go somewhere. My guess is that the coolant loosened a very large piece of carbon that eventually managed to hold the exhaust valve open considerably more than the smaller pieces of carbon. This created the situation where a large amount of fuel could be pumped into the exhaust system where it eventually ignited.

I would be happy to hear of anyone else with similar experiences, or even an alternative explanation to the symptoms that I experienced.


Final conclusion: I think I might install some air cleaners on top of the trumpets.
 
Chris,

Glad to hear that it wasn't anything serious!

Like you, I was reluctant to add stack filters for aesthetic reasons, but I was a bit concerned with foreign particles working their way into the trumpets, so I added filters and screens to the intake holes in the rear clip, among other places.
I fashioned the filters out of 3 layers of household A/C filter media(dyed black with ink), The screen is gasketed with a piece of 1/4" vacuum hose with a slit running it's length(fit around the edge of the screen), and glued in place with black weatherstrip adhesive.
The filters are held in by vacuum only, but are a fairly snug fit. It's far better than nothing, and the "look" is still there. I'm planning on adding a cold air box to seal the trumpets from the engine bay, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Total cost for filter media-$8. Ink-$2.50 Vacuum Hose-
$1 Weatherstrip adhesive-$5 Screen-$10+or-. Total-$26.50


There's a previous thread, with photos of the screens.

Attached is a shot of an intake screen. They seem to do the

job pretty well, 'cause each time I rinse them out, "ugly

stuff" appears at the bottom of the bucket!



Bill
 

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ITG makes filters that fit on Weber IDFs. They might fit
IDAs as well. Not cheap, but probably worth looking into.
Basically, you would have 1 filter per pair of trumpets.

http://www.itgairfilters.com/

Look for maxflow JC20, JC40, JC50 and maybe JC90 or
raceair JC10, JC70 and JC71.

Ian
 
Chris,
Considering the top of the #4 piston was clean, it probably was leaking for a while. More likely the popping was from a number of things, water interfering with the spark, boiling in the cylinder, reversion back into the intake, pressurizing the cooling system etc. Starting a motor with coolant in the cylinder can cause problems as well. It could hydraulicly lock the engine ( not real likely) as well as force water into the oil pan. Antifreeze is BAD stuff when mixed with oil and given enough in the pan will wipe out the bearings in minutes. It's always a good idea to immediately drain all the fluids when something like this happens.
Bill
 
Chris,
I was wondering what you are using for engine management. The amount of carbon build up you are talking about should not be taking place even if you ar driving like a little old school teacher. I don't think I have ever heard of enough to raise the compression ratio. In any event, I would suggest a look at it anyway. The popping may have been as Bill above mentioned, but could have come from any one of a number of sources(sticking valve to a bad sensor). A good checkout would be in order.

Bill
 
My ramble went on long enough as it was, but here is some more information /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

J What,
A few extra symptoms. The popping was always from the exhaust and during deceleration. The higher the revs, the more popping, and accompanied by a small orange flame I am told. It suggests unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust maybe? I would have thought that coolant in the mixture would reduce that possibility. Your thoughts?
Incidentally, hydraulic lock did occur the first time we tried to start it at the farm. Plug 4 was removed and an amount of coolant sprayed out when we cranked the engine again (remember that the car was sitting for a week giving it time for the coolant to leak slowly and the carbon to soak).

Bill,
The car was most recently driven at a race meeting and then driven back from the track in third gear all the way (a four hour drive at 4000+ rpm) because the box got stuck in 3rd. The problem I describe above happened shortly after the gearbox repair so could I be correct in suggesting that the carbon buildup was not due to an under stressed driving pattern.
FYI: The ECU is a Motec M800 and was mapped by someone who is well respected within the industry. I think we can say that the map has not changed, but I’ll look into the possibility that we are dealing with an intermittent sensor (a real nightmare to diagnose though).
I’m not sure how else to explain the pinging other than compression ratios or possibly an increase in combustion chamber temperatures, both of which could be caused by carbon buildup. One thing that I can definitely say though, The only two changes made to the engine was the cleaning of the chambers and a change of head and inlet manifold gaskets.

Agreed, a good checkout is in order... staring with the wealth of knowledge that always seems to come from this forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Chris

Long shot but have you also filled the fuel tanks?

Perhaps the last lot was a "bad" batch and the more recent better for the state of tune?

I would have considered 4 hours at 4000 rpm would have cleaned all the carbon out the engine and also have emptied the tank!

Did you alter the timing during the strip and rebuild?

Ian
 
Ian,

Some ideas worthwhile considering there.

The popping started some time ago though and had gradually been getting worse so I have been through a few tankfull's since it then. The fuel in the tanks now is the same fuel that we had when we were cranking the engine at the farm (almost gone now and aged a few weeks) but the engine is still running OK now.

There were no timing alterations other than re-adjusting the valves as a result of removing the heads (now there's a thought).
 
Chris,
I beleive what happened was the coolant leaking into the cylinder was totally the whole problem. When coolant is combusted with fuel it creates steam which explains the clean combustion chamber and piston. Back in the old days when lead was used in fuels we had to change plugs every 3 or 4000 miles because of carbon. What we used to do was take and clean the plugs. Then we would stick them back in, start the engine then squirt a mixture of light oil and water down the carb while holding 2000 RPMs.
The engine would ping like crazy. The steam cleaned out the carbon really good. The steam can also raise the temperature of the engine. I'm not suggesting people go out and do this with todays egines but it does explain how steam could be responsible.
I too run no filtration system but there are things that I do to prevent the build up of contaminates around the butterflies and in the runners. I spray carb cleaner around the butterflies while the engine is not running and cool. Then after an hour or so when the carb cleaner has evaporated I spray a light coat of WD40 on the butterflies. I then start the engine and allow it to run up to temp then I shut it down. I have over 30,000 miles and it does not burn oil. I do use synthetic oil and it always looks clean when I change it.
I wish someone would make the old tea stainer type inserts like they used in the fifties. Guys used to tape real tea strainer baskets to the tops of the trumpets to keep out large contaninates. Those that Inglese' sells do not fit my trumpets. Besides, they are flat and I would like the domed strainers. Maybe someone does make them. Anybody know what I'm refering to?

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
This language barrier can be a real pain sometimes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think we are talking about the samething. Here is a picture.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

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Here is an interesting approach. Maybe this can be modified to work.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

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Hey Tim! That's it !

I wish there were some of those that would fit my Trumpets.
My trumpets are 3 1/8" diameter at the top with a 1/4" rim.
They also have a 4 bolt attachment base.
I would still like to have a set of what you have. I think I might be able to come up with a way to secure them to mine.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

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Tim Kay

Lifetime Supporter
Sorry Hersh, I just provided a picture of the velocity stacks for this thread. I bought a similar set on ebay which the seller shipped out of japan.

To get the picture posted above I did a search on ebay for 'weber velocity stacks' and checked the 'past items' box.

Frankly they look a bit nicer than the ones I purchased in addition to having a tighter weave than mine.
 
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