Americas Cup

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
If they limit the crews to the country of origin of the challenger, then my serious money is on the Kiwis. Or the Brits. Or the Aussies. But not us Yanks. We are, I hate to say it, not the best sailors. There are things we are the best at, but sailing isn't one of them. We have our successes, but not nearly as many as all of the above teams. If that makes me less than loyal, well, I'm just being realistic.
 

Keith

Moderator
Jimbo, Google has just reported that it is under a constant barrage of sailing questions so intense it is tantamount to a D.O.S. attack and it originates from just one IP address!

I leave you to guess where and to prepare yourself for a rebuttal, unless I miss my guess.

Good luck...
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
If they limit the crews to the country of origin of the challenger, then my serious money is on the Kiwis. Or the Brits. Or the Aussies. But not us Yanks. We are, I hate to say it, not the best sailors. There are things we are the best at, but sailing isn't one of them. We have our successes, but not nearly as many as all of the above teams. If that makes me less than loyal, well, I'm just being realistic.

Yes Jimbo thats right, we have never really figured out this sailing thing.

The current Americas Cup Standings, Wins:

Australia....................1
New Zealand...............2
Swiss........................2
USA.........................30


Race Wins:

USA.....................................94
All others combined................32

Jimbo, back in the days when they had to make their own boats/sails, use Nationals for crew only.

You know, before they could buy their sails and riggs from the USA, we really were no good at this............

Only winning every Americas Cup for 132 years straight. Includung 25 Cup Defenses in a row, & winning 66 races and losing 8.

Then they made us share!

Yea we suck at sailing.
 
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Steve

Supporter
Jimbo, Google has just reported that it is under a constant barrage of sailing questions so intense it is tantamount to a D.O.S. attack and it originates from just one IP address!

I leave you to guess where and to prepare yourself for a rebuttal, unless I miss my guess.

Good luck...


42 minutes before a response....... Either Google servers were down for a bit or a severe intrinsic hand muscle cramp causing a flareup of mouseitis resulted in a catastrophic delay.

Good call by the way.:thumbsup:
 
The Head Honcho of the Kiwi composites outfit that built Oracle was on NZTV this morning, claimed that 'they' had made several small development type changes during the early part of this series that had helped the boats handling, seemed to suggest that the prang that oracle had in pre series testing had put them behind in that development.
Dont claim to be a 'sailor' of any kind myself, but have watched from my 'armchair' & FWIW here are my observations.
Early in series NZ were able to sustain momentum in tacks especially upwind with boat not really settling back into water, while USA were having problem in that area. Later half of series it appeared the boats had swapped traits with NZ seeming slow out of tacks.
The 'so called' auto trim of the front foils on USA was clearly evident during the last few races with USA coming out of tacks when foiling and very stable, whereas the NZ boat would porpoise several times after each turn before it settled into a stable attitude ( I liken it to your first flight when learning to fly & trying to trim for level flight, but ending up with a series of porpoise actions, when on autopilot all thats done for you!). To me that situation must be magnified on these boats once up on the foils as the pitching moment from that huge wing is felt with every change in direction or puff of wind ( bit like trying to water ski on stilts I would imagine.
Couple of things have me wondering, on the starts won by USA in light winds the USA boat was able to 'Luff?' the NZ boat out towards the boundary rather than turn downwind at the first mark...yet when NZ were first cab off the rank & first to that first mark, could NZ have just carried straight ahead & in this case run over USA when USA attempted its left turn downwind?...love to see that practise in motorsport, off pole position & you gently escort your opposition out into the boondocks rather than stay on the pole line for the first corner!
 

Keith

Moderator
The Head Honcho of the Kiwi composites outfit that built Oracle was on NZTV this morning, claimed that 'they' had made several small development type changes during the early part of this series that had helped the boats handling, seemed to suggest that the prang that oracle had in pre series testing had put them behind in that development.
Dont claim to be a 'sailor' of any kind myself, but have watched from my 'armchair' & FWIW here are my observations.
Early in series NZ were able to sustain momentum in tacks especially upwind with boat not really settling back into water, while USA were having problem in that area. Later half of series it appeared the boats had swapped traits with NZ seeming slow out of tacks.
The 'so called' auto trim of the front foils on USA was clearly evident during the last few races with USA coming out of tacks when foiling and very stable, whereas the NZ boat would porpoise several times after each turn before it settled into a stable attitude ( I liken it to your first flight when learning to fly & trying to trim for level flight, but ending up with a series of porpoise actions, when on autopilot all thats done for you!). To me that situation must be magnified on these boats once up on the foils as the pitching moment from that huge wing is felt with every change in direction or puff of wind ( bit like trying to water ski on stilts I would imagine.
Couple of things have me wondering, on the starts won by USA in light winds the USA boat was able to 'Luff?' the NZ boat out towards the boundary rather than turn downwind at the first mark...yet when NZ were first cab off the rank & first to that first mark, could NZ have just carried straight ahead & in this case run over USA when USA attempted its left turn downwind?...love to see that practise in motorsport, off pole position & you gently escort your opposition out into the boondocks rather than stay on the pole line for the first corner!

Well as always Jc, you have presented a far more analytical solution, but yes the tacks are everything. As for luffing rights, it's a wonderful tactic but you first have to establish a significant overlap and be the leeward boat - bow level with the mast and at those speeds it must have taken split second timing.

As for your example I cannot picture it without a diagram but if Oracle found itself on Port Tack with TNZ on Stbd, then theoretically yes..TNZ would be the right-of-way (stand on) vessel and could run them over, although I do not think they would have earned many points for that!.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
We may have been the best back in the day. We did hold onto the Cup for thirteen decades, and it is a record. That was a long time ago. This is a new era. There were very few Americans on Oracle's boat, for one thing, and I'm not even sure it was built here. You can legit'ly say that back in the day when we had to build it here, we won all the time, but we also wrote the rules, and had the home court advantage. For 132 years. And the Aussies came over and beat us on our own turf nevertheless.

Modern AC yacht racing is different. It's a sport for billionaires only, no one else can afford it. It was always a rich man's sport, but the participants now aren't merely rich; they are super-rich, which may make for exciting racing but it makes it less interesting in terms of the run-up to the actual Cup race.

I have a tendency to root for underdogs, I admit, and I think Ellison is a jerk, but the idea of yacht racing as an international sport where you just buy your way to the top irks me. I think that's what it's turned into, and I'm sorry the underdog didn't win.

So if you think that a win by a boat financed by an American, built overseas, sailed by everyone but Americans, etc, is a win for the USA, good for you. I think that's delusional, but if you want to think of it as part of a great 132 year record, I won't disabuse you of that idea. When Americans win with a boat built in America and designed here in America and crewed by Americans, then I'll grant you that American sailors are as good as Kiwis or anyone else. Until then, forget it.
 

Keith

Moderator
Undeniable logic Jimbo. You are dead right about the rules in previous years. The New York Yacht Club went through hoops to ensure any Challenger was majorly disadvantaged and even when they famously lost to the Australians they refused to let them take the jug home. IIRC wasn't there a court case over it?

We have the expertise in every department in the UK, what we don't have is the money or even a history of sponsorship at this level.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I think there was a court case. The NYYC hasn't been known for its sportsmanship. If you recall, the person associated with the America's Cup thought to be the best sportsman was Thomas Lipton, the tea magnate.

Sir Thomas Lipton, I should say.

He was English.

The fact that other countries, chiefly England, bothered to come over here and contest the Cup at all on the sloping playing field says something about their determination and pluck. If you think on it, two average lifetimes went by with the Cup in the hands of the NYYC. And only then did another country's team win it. Fair and square, and here in the USA.

I'm not anti-American. I AM anti-unfair play. I think there's a history of Americans feeling that the Cup is "ours" and that it's ours to keep. Hence the rigging of the rules by the NYYC, and now the Oracle effort to win by outspending everyone else. That tactic of shoveling money at the effort worked well for Reagan in exhausting the Soviets. I don't think it was cricket here.

I look forward to seeing new rules and having an American team win in a way I can be proud of. Outspending the opposition isn't winning so much as it is beating them to death with your checkbook.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Modern AC yacht racing is different. It's a sport for billionaires only, no one else can afford it. It was always a rich man's sport, but the participants now aren't merely rich; they are super-rich, which may make for exciting racing but it makes it less interesting in terms of the run-up to the actual Cup race.

Jimbo, modern AC racing is not different, the rich have never competed, it has always been the......

*****SUPER RICH*****

Some previous AC winners

Harold S Vanderbilt
Cornelious Vanderbilt III
William K Vanderbilt
J P Morgan
Malcom Forbes
William Douglas
Henry Sears
Mercer Frese
Ted Turner
William Koch

Some previous AC losers

Sir Thomas Lipton
Earl of Dunraven
Sir Thomas Sopwith

Jimbo, in a sport where Billionaires compete, you woud be mistaken to dicount the United States.

Billionaires.............

New Zealand.......................3
Australia............................18
UK....................................37
USA.................................442
 
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Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Seems that your statistics are thriving J.C. So the billionaires buy the good sailors from Oz and N.Z.?
All that is needed is a name change. It's not really an Americas cup, more an International cup funded by rich people.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Pete,

I just love facts.

It was never "Americas" Cup, the boat that first won the Cup was named "America". I guess we were lucky it was not named the Betty Jean..........

Obviously over the years with the races being in America, and all those wins, many just figured it was named after the country and not the boat.

Like I said until the 1970s the teams and crews had to be home grown, once they opened it up to anything goes, billionaires did what billionaires have always done. They brought in the best from around the world.

That said, if the rules were back to "home grown", rest assured they could make the boats here, it might cost more, but trust me they could. As for sailers, we have plenty, and after this Cup, there will be a lot more.........Cat sailers at that.
 
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Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Well, it's sailors, not "sailers", to start with.

And if we have so many of them, why were both boats crewed mostly by Brits, Kiwis, and Aussies? Were there any Americans on the Oracle? Was Ellison even on the boat?

In the sailing sports which DO allow other countries to compete evenly with the USA (the Olympic sailing events) which are one-design classes, the Americans' share of the gold and silver medals is proportionately very small. We routinely get out-sailed by the aforementioned three countries, and maybe others as well. Face it, Jim: we don't have as many world-class sailors as the other folks do. That's why Ellison hired all his deck crew and damn near everyone else from other countries.


"They brought in the best from around the world." You said it better than I could have, actually. The best just doesn't happen to be Americans. What this race REALLY was was two teams from the British Commonwealth racing in SF Bay. Well, there are worse venues, I'll give you that.
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Well Jimbo, perhaps we shall see.

Say guys, does Ron Dennis drive his race cars.............Is it ok for him to celebrate?

I suggest you go watch the AC press conference after the last race, before you condemn Mr Ellison.
 
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Keith

Moderator
Was Ron Dennis entered? I missed that. Which boat was he on? I would have thought him a little old for the Americas Cup personally...
 
As to financing our TNZ effort I would like to make a disclosure here in public: I made a personal contribution, which was not voluntary. As Brian suggests in a previous post, the government has indeed contributed about one quarter of the budget for TNZ. On our national TV1 station an amount of 26 Million was mentioned, consisting of "tax payer funds"

We are roughly 2 million workers who contribute ( guess only), thus about 13 bucks from each tax payer.

To offset this it is argued that the good will to the brand " Pure New Zealand" from a potential tourist's view is worth far more than 26 mil.







Z.C.
 
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