Audi 016 Owners/Users
- Thread starter Ron Earp
- Start date
yeah a little machining is required and a little bit of shimming is required between the sections as the porsche gears are slighty longer
OK My 2 cents
being I have never driven a machice with one installed
Looking at the spider gear picture, This does not appear to be a tensile strength issue. When discussing the failure mode with the cryo process folks we agree as did the folks from NC that it is a fatige issue from cyclic loading and not a ultimate strength fracture failure. If it where to break on the first clutch dump then we all agreed the gear is not strong enough in tensile strength, this is not the case. The cyclic loading issue can be helped by the cryo process and make the gear stand up to cyclic loading with out developing fatige cracks and then failing.
installing the porsche setup with LSD and 4 spider gears then doing the cryo process would seem to me the best config.
This is what I think I will do as well as install the steel backing plate.
I do not plan to do high torque loading on the gearbox, However I want it to hold up for a long time to come. This will be in a application far exceeding the audi factory installed loading with the stock 5000cs turbo
best
being I have never driven a machice with one installed
Looking at the spider gear picture, This does not appear to be a tensile strength issue. When discussing the failure mode with the cryo process folks we agree as did the folks from NC that it is a fatige issue from cyclic loading and not a ultimate strength fracture failure. If it where to break on the first clutch dump then we all agreed the gear is not strong enough in tensile strength, this is not the case. The cyclic loading issue can be helped by the cryo process and make the gear stand up to cyclic loading with out developing fatige cracks and then failing.
installing the porsche setup with LSD and 4 spider gears then doing the cryo process would seem to me the best config.
This is what I think I will do as well as install the steel backing plate.
I do not plan to do high torque loading on the gearbox, However I want it to hold up for a long time to come. This will be in a application far exceeding the audi factory installed loading with the stock 5000cs turbo
best
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Actually Chris, what was said by Brandy Sour wasn’t the full story. There are no modifications necessary to use the Porsche 944 turbo LSD. It will fit right in.
The pinion gear out of the Porsche how ever is longer by 4mm. Why use the Porsche set?? The reason is, because the 944 turbo had 3.375 R&P ratio. Not as good as 3.22, but cheaper due to it’s availability as a used part and for those who have the tools and the resources to make the modifications below. Note: not an easy Job!!!
* As I said above the pinion gear is 4mm longer. This increase in length occurs between the 3rd gear and 4th gear.
* Also, 3rd gear on the Porsche is a little thicker. One snap ring groove on the 944 Turbo pinion shaft for 3rd gear, is in the same location as the Audi, and one is spaced a little closer to 4th gear, making the space for 3rd gear wider. This can be remedied by placing 3rd gear against the proper snap ring and then shimming the wider gap or by re-cutting the wrong groove in the right spot with a parting tool on a lathe. Either will work.
* Now for 4th gear, it has approximately a 4mm wide shoulder on it. If you turn 4th gear around it will move the teeth back 4mm to line them up with the gear on the Audi main input shaft.
* Now that that’s fixed, you still have the problem that the pinion gear is 4mm to far forward, so you have to build a 4mm case spacer and place it between the front aluminum case and the cast iron center case.
* Now all gears are line up, but the shift fork shafts have been moved back 4mm and now the slot in them don’t line up properly with the shift paw. If you simply rotate the paw back to line it up it’s not bad when it’s in the neutral position, but when the shift paw has to rotate back to select a back gear it almost comes out of engagement with the slot in any of the 3 shift fork shafts.
To remedy this problem you have to lengthen all 3shift shafts just behind the slots by 4mm.
* Now that this is done the Front Aluminum case has to have the pinion bearing bore increased to accept the bigger 944 Turbo “Front” pinion bearing. The Audi bearing cup is 3.265” O.D. diameter. The Porsche turbo’s bearing cup O.D. is 3.503” I listed this in inch because believe or not FAG lists these as inch bearing not metric.
So the case has to be bore to 3.497 + - .001 The Porsche 944 turbo front pinion bearing number is: 016 311 220 L
The last thing is the front Aluminum case has to have the ring gear area bored out slightly for the larger 944 turbo ring gear. This ring gear bore is a cast surface and has draft angle in it. The ring gear actually fits in almost to the bottom and then hits. So it doesn’t need a lot removed, just at the bottom. Maybe you can get away with a die grinder. I’m a machinist so I prefer to just set up and bore it.
After reading all of this the 3.22 from German Trans probably sounds like a sweet deal. If not, you know what needs to be done, have at it!!
Hope I didn’t send this thread off on too much of a tangent.
Cheers,
The pinion gear out of the Porsche how ever is longer by 4mm. Why use the Porsche set?? The reason is, because the 944 turbo had 3.375 R&P ratio. Not as good as 3.22, but cheaper due to it’s availability as a used part and for those who have the tools and the resources to make the modifications below. Note: not an easy Job!!!
* As I said above the pinion gear is 4mm longer. This increase in length occurs between the 3rd gear and 4th gear.
* Also, 3rd gear on the Porsche is a little thicker. One snap ring groove on the 944 Turbo pinion shaft for 3rd gear, is in the same location as the Audi, and one is spaced a little closer to 4th gear, making the space for 3rd gear wider. This can be remedied by placing 3rd gear against the proper snap ring and then shimming the wider gap or by re-cutting the wrong groove in the right spot with a parting tool on a lathe. Either will work.
* Now for 4th gear, it has approximately a 4mm wide shoulder on it. If you turn 4th gear around it will move the teeth back 4mm to line them up with the gear on the Audi main input shaft.
* Now that that’s fixed, you still have the problem that the pinion gear is 4mm to far forward, so you have to build a 4mm case spacer and place it between the front aluminum case and the cast iron center case.
* Now all gears are line up, but the shift fork shafts have been moved back 4mm and now the slot in them don’t line up properly with the shift paw. If you simply rotate the paw back to line it up it’s not bad when it’s in the neutral position, but when the shift paw has to rotate back to select a back gear it almost comes out of engagement with the slot in any of the 3 shift fork shafts.
To remedy this problem you have to lengthen all 3shift shafts just behind the slots by 4mm.
* Now that this is done the Front Aluminum case has to have the pinion bearing bore increased to accept the bigger 944 Turbo “Front” pinion bearing. The Audi bearing cup is 3.265” O.D. diameter. The Porsche turbo’s bearing cup O.D. is 3.503” I listed this in inch because believe or not FAG lists these as inch bearing not metric.
So the case has to be bore to 3.497 + - .001 The Porsche 944 turbo front pinion bearing number is: 016 311 220 L
The last thing is the front Aluminum case has to have the ring gear area bored out slightly for the larger 944 turbo ring gear. This ring gear bore is a cast surface and has draft angle in it. The ring gear actually fits in almost to the bottom and then hits. So it doesn’t need a lot removed, just at the bottom. Maybe you can get away with a die grinder. I’m a machinist so I prefer to just set up and bore it.
After reading all of this the 3.22 from German Trans probably sounds like a sweet deal. If not, you know what needs to be done, have at it!!
Hope I didn’t send this thread off on too much of a tangent.
Cheers,
whoa Jim
The 3.375 porsche gear maybe my next mod
The is exactly why I have a bridgeport Vert Mill, Lathe, Plasma Cutter, tig welder, lots of tooling and jigs and head scratching to do.
I have called DANA to find what is the deal with German parts for getrag in the states,,, no luck yet!
The 016 will be perfect then... LOL
Thanks
best
The 3.375 porsche gear maybe my next mod
The is exactly why I have a bridgeport Vert Mill, Lathe, Plasma Cutter, tig welder, lots of tooling and jigs and head scratching to do.
I have called DANA to find what is the deal with German parts for getrag in the states,,, no luck yet!
The 016 will be perfect then... LOL
Thanks
best
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
Ok Picture this. I'm in 4th place on the starting grid just before a race. I've got a GT2 and 2 GT3s in front and about 11 asstd cars behind. Now when the red lights go out do you reckon I'm thinking about the transaxle weaknesses? Answer No! I take the revs up to 2-3000 and sidestep the clutch. The 17" 300 slick tyres break traction instantly but I generally start well and hold position or make some. I couldn't live with this car if I wasn't able to treat it this way so i'm a ZF man through and through. How about somebody post the ZF crown wheel next to the Audi, I think you'll see what I mean with that comparison. Still interesting to read HP figures mentioned with Audi reliability when The V8's torque would have to be the transaxle killer. On the other hand I do have the original Renault 336 TX in the Lotus Europa and I've doubled the HP from 80 to 165 by fitting the Toyota 20 valve motor. Good thing is though, the Toyota doesn't have a lot of torque and power comes high in RPM band. The big difference between the 2 cars is great, although they both have the same drivetrain layout The GT40 is a brute and the lotus a delicate lady. Love them both. Sorry to hijack this thread Ron but a GT40 with a question mark on the transaxle strength, brings a word to mind " Colotti ". Norman Faulkner has had a failure with an Audi box (5 speed ) but 6 speed going ok.
Ross
Ross
Thanks Jim S. for the information.
I think that the Porsche R&P with the heavy duty gear set from Quaife will be almost perfect with a V8. The stock R&P ratios are a little on the short side and the 3.22 with the heavy duty gears is almost too tall. The Porsche set should be ideal. I will be trying this and see what happens.
I think that the Porsche R&P with the heavy duty gear set from Quaife will be almost perfect with a V8. The stock R&P ratios are a little on the short side and the 3.22 with the heavy duty gears is almost too tall. The Porsche set should be ideal. I will be trying this and see what happens.
Thanks for the detailed info Jim. Some great ideas on solving those dimensional differences. I have a Grizzly mill right now, not a nice knee mill, so pulling those mods off might be a bit tricky. This is probably something to do after I get my car built and running. It probably won't have more than 300HP at first.
Hey Ross
No one is comparing the Audi to the ZF in terms in strength.
Question is what are the limits of the Audi on the street,
and on the track with MODERATE torque/bhp.
You see there's that dirty word BUDGET to contend with.
If easy take-offs prolong the life of the Audi to the point that Ron
(or others) can make it work, then why spend thousands just
to be able to do a banzai start? The history of auto racing
is filled with stories of certain drivers being " more sympathetic"
with their equipment and finishing the race when others broke.
Mike
No one is comparing the Audi to the ZF in terms in strength.
Question is what are the limits of the Audi on the street,
and on the track with MODERATE torque/bhp.
You see there's that dirty word BUDGET to contend with.
If easy take-offs prolong the life of the Audi to the point that Ron
(or others) can make it work, then why spend thousands just
to be able to do a banzai start? The history of auto racing
is filled with stories of certain drivers being " more sympathetic"
with their equipment and finishing the race when others broke.
Mike
Agreed - I wouldn't be racing with an Audi box anyway. Hey - $175(USD) ain't bad for a transaxle. Neither is $15 for a steering rack (yup - 260Z - again, not my first choice for performance, but when you take into account budget it's damn near impossible to find anything better.) In fact, I'm even contemplating using 2 rear calipers on each front corner if it will keep the price down.
Not wishing to Hijack this thread but it is related to Audi boxes and BUDGET,
Audi modified the 01E at least 4 times in its lifetime to make it last longer, bearing carriers plus 2 of the more famous upgrades were wider first gear, but I believe the last was modding the spigot shaft so it acted like a torsion bar and absorbed some initial clutch dump shock.
As far as I am aware they didn't mod the diff.
Is this the right place to look for failure or is the damage just the symptom of a weakness somewhere else?
Mixing and matching parts, plus reading the above sounds like quite of bit of work if your paying for it by the hour, plus if one it lets go you could total the box! Are you starting with the right box? How much will this cost?
Some time ago I had a job lot of top spec 01E Audi boxes, I advertised them on here, I didnt have one enquirey, I sold one previously to a GT40 builder (manufacturer), ones headed for a Lambo + chevy combo the other to another mid engine chevy setup. Couldnt shift them for £1500 brand new, strongest variation of the Audi box, good for 400bhp according to Audi themselves, but would expect them to sustain more as they were the top spec.
I am sort of with Ross on this, your building a sports car with a big V8 in it, do you really want to spend all your driving time nursing it along in the hope it dont go bang
Sooner or later someone in a Nissan Skyline or such like will be parked right next to you at lights, or tagging you at a track day. If this isnt the time to flex the V8 then why build a GT40?
Audi modified the 01E at least 4 times in its lifetime to make it last longer, bearing carriers plus 2 of the more famous upgrades were wider first gear, but I believe the last was modding the spigot shaft so it acted like a torsion bar and absorbed some initial clutch dump shock.
As far as I am aware they didn't mod the diff.
Is this the right place to look for failure or is the damage just the symptom of a weakness somewhere else?
Mixing and matching parts, plus reading the above sounds like quite of bit of work if your paying for it by the hour, plus if one it lets go you could total the box! Are you starting with the right box? How much will this cost?
Some time ago I had a job lot of top spec 01E Audi boxes, I advertised them on here, I didnt have one enquirey, I sold one previously to a GT40 builder (manufacturer), ones headed for a Lambo + chevy combo the other to another mid engine chevy setup. Couldnt shift them for £1500 brand new, strongest variation of the Audi box, good for 400bhp according to Audi themselves, but would expect them to sustain more as they were the top spec.
I am sort of with Ross on this, your building a sports car with a big V8 in it, do you really want to spend all your driving time nursing it along in the hope it dont go bang
Sooner or later someone in a Nissan Skyline or such like will be parked right next to you at lights, or tagging you at a track day. If this isnt the time to flex the V8 then why build a GT40?
I have over 15,000 miles on this car that I built last year. It is driven all the time at a rental car agency so you know it has seen some major abuse.
I have driven it quite a bit too and I broke the spider gears myself one day by rolling at about 20 mph between first and second and I dumped the clutch in second at about 3500 RPM.
I normally drive it hard but my foot needs to be OFF the clutch pedal when abusing it. It will last forever as long as you don't 'shock' it.
For the cost it is a good transaxle and can take some abuse but make sure the steel plate is in it first.
Jim S... I bow down to your knowledge of the Audi/Porsche modification.
You da man.
Cheers
Jim
I have driven it quite a bit too and I broke the spider gears myself one day by rolling at about 20 mph between first and second and I dumped the clutch in second at about 3500 RPM.
I normally drive it hard but my foot needs to be OFF the clutch pedal when abusing it. It will last forever as long as you don't 'shock' it.
For the cost it is a good transaxle and can take some abuse but make sure the steel plate is in it first.
Jim S... I bow down to your knowledge of the Audi/Porsche modification.
You da man.
Cheers
Jim
This is a great thread and has answered many questions I had also. Is there somewhere that has a list of the different tranaxles, the cost, weakness and fixes for each?
Thank you
Jim
Thank you
Jim
jnielsen said:
Not really Jim.
There is heaps of information available piecemeal all over this site and a series of intelligent searches will drag it out but what is really needed since there is so much interest in transaxles is something along the lines that Ron was proposing for the different GT40 types.
Where a knowledgeable person is allocated (volunteers) to do a subject and writes up and collates information in their area of expertise. In this case instead of that being Mk1 or Mk2 or Mk4 etc it would be Audi or Porsche or ZF etc. The trouble with that though would be finding people willing and able to do it.
Cheers
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Audi 016 with 3.22 C&P
Well it seems there is a lot of info about what you have to and what you cant do with the 016. I had a track day at my local raceway (Willowbank) in Brizvegas, I have recently fitted one of the 3.22 C&P I had made to my box with no mods needed to install. I'm running a 302 with girdle custom sump, race rods and a fairly aggressive cam, alloy heads ported and flowed by the same guy who does all Stone Brothers (Local super car V8 team) and my custom modified 8 stack injection etc etc.The Windsor is set up for high RPM and medium torque, perhaps much higher torque could be a problem (just how much can we use, really). While I did'nt dump the clutch I did hammer it on the track, taco was often up to 7000rpm the car never missed a beat. I did find the the track a little short ( i never got in to fifth gear before the end of the straight came up). It would seem that my 016 is plenty tough enough for what most of will be doing. The car has great legs however I discovered the brake fluid was not up to the heat. Also fitted one of Mental Performance's gear shifts. I have had the pleasure of working with and assiting Jim C with the R & D on a number of components. He is one smart cookie. The shift worked faultlessly, precise with short quick changes. In short unless you delibrately intend on testing the box you can get a lot out of the 016. I think there is a lot of b#@# Sh*&T floating around about the capability of the Audi box, after all they did win half a dozen WRC using a lot more power and torque than most GT40's would probably produce with essentially the same box.
Well it seems there is a lot of info about what you have to and what you cant do with the 016. I had a track day at my local raceway (Willowbank) in Brizvegas, I have recently fitted one of the 3.22 C&P I had made to my box with no mods needed to install. I'm running a 302 with girdle custom sump, race rods and a fairly aggressive cam, alloy heads ported and flowed by the same guy who does all Stone Brothers (Local super car V8 team) and my custom modified 8 stack injection etc etc.The Windsor is set up for high RPM and medium torque, perhaps much higher torque could be a problem (just how much can we use, really). While I did'nt dump the clutch I did hammer it on the track, taco was often up to 7000rpm the car never missed a beat. I did find the the track a little short ( i never got in to fifth gear before the end of the straight came up). It would seem that my 016 is plenty tough enough for what most of will be doing. The car has great legs however I discovered the brake fluid was not up to the heat. Also fitted one of Mental Performance's gear shifts. I have had the pleasure of working with and assiting Jim C with the R & D on a number of components. He is one smart cookie. The shift worked faultlessly, precise with short quick changes. In short unless you delibrately intend on testing the box you can get a lot out of the 016. I think there is a lot of b#@# Sh*&T floating around about the capability of the Audi box, after all they did win half a dozen WRC using a lot more power and torque than most GT40's would probably produce with essentially the same box.
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Jim Dinner,
Thanks. I purchased a Audi 016 after reading the things that you had experienced with them. They seem like a pretty tough trans with the mod that you put together. The only problem that I could see was that the R&P ratio wasn't that great. Then I found different post about the 944 Turbo R&P that might fit, but No one had a straight answer on if it would or wouldn't and why not. Most of the answers were this has been attemped and would'nt work. OK why not, well no one knows for sure or they're not saying.
I've heard so many times that things just won't work on past projects and then find out that they will with a little Fab work. Won't work answers with out explanation drive me crazy. So I decide to dig deep. So I pulled mine apart and then located a used set of 944 Porsche turbo gears and a 944 LSD, and began measuring. Speculation just doesn't work for me I want to know.
Now I do and I don't mind sharing the info. I still haven't started performing the mods yet, and maybe it just isn't worth the effort to most people, but ha, building a kit car in general isn't an easy task and people are doing that.
IMHO I have a hard time spending $8,000 to $10,000 on a trans when the kits themselves are only $40,000 ish. I won't have $8,000 in my motor.
I have a 3600 LBS. drag car that street legal in Michigan and runs 9.82 in the quarter, that has a life time guarantee Automatic trans from Performance Automatics that only cost $1400 plus $300.00 for the Bellhousing and $300.00 for torque convert and around $1500 in the 9" Ford rear. Add it up $3500.00 for a set up thats good for 1000HP.
So it's hard for me to justify much more than $3000.00 for something that's going to only see aprox: 500hp
Just food for thought and I'm not trying to upset anyone, to each his own.
Thanks. I purchased a Audi 016 after reading the things that you had experienced with them. They seem like a pretty tough trans with the mod that you put together. The only problem that I could see was that the R&P ratio wasn't that great. Then I found different post about the 944 Turbo R&P that might fit, but No one had a straight answer on if it would or wouldn't and why not. Most of the answers were this has been attemped and would'nt work. OK why not, well no one knows for sure or they're not saying.
I've heard so many times that things just won't work on past projects and then find out that they will with a little Fab work. Won't work answers with out explanation drive me crazy. So I decide to dig deep. So I pulled mine apart and then located a used set of 944 Porsche turbo gears and a 944 LSD, and began measuring. Speculation just doesn't work for me I want to know.
Now I do and I don't mind sharing the info. I still haven't started performing the mods yet, and maybe it just isn't worth the effort to most people, but ha, building a kit car in general isn't an easy task and people are doing that.
IMHO I have a hard time spending $8,000 to $10,000 on a trans when the kits themselves are only $40,000 ish. I won't have $8,000 in my motor.
I have a 3600 LBS. drag car that street legal in Michigan and runs 9.82 in the quarter, that has a life time guarantee Automatic trans from Performance Automatics that only cost $1400 plus $300.00 for the Bellhousing and $300.00 for torque convert and around $1500 in the 9" Ford rear. Add it up $3500.00 for a set up thats good for 1000HP.
So it's hard for me to justify much more than $3000.00 for something that's going to only see aprox: 500hp
Just food for thought and I'm not trying to upset anyone, to each his own.
Ron Earp
Admin
I agree with you Mick and some of the others posting in the same vein. The box is far from ideal, sure, but generally when it comes up the first thing someone (who has a ZF naturally) says is get a ZF. Well, not everyone can afford a ZF, unfortunately. Was a time when I could afford one, but, that was before $37k went missing!Mick said:
Anyway, the thread isn't about comparing the ZF to the Audi, that's been done before.
It looks like the Audi can last very well if not subjected to clutch dumps. And, if strengthened can handle those somewhat. While the ratios are not that good, if your motor is built for RPM it really is a non-issue. Definitely helps to have a numerically lower R&P though if you are sticking with a hydraulic cam or low RPM limit.
Looking forward to getting mine bolted up and running, but again KED is holding up the show. If you need parts from those guys plan ahead.
Did Buzz have an Audi box in the OneLap GT40?
Ron
tran
You never could spell Mick.
Jim C
You never could spell Mick.
Jim C
