B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.

[Garry]

I know that someone has said this before, but is it any wonder that the Imam wants to build this "cultural center" near GZ? There is a lot of building space in Manhattan and the Muslim leaders could have chosen another location if all they wanted was to reach out to New Yorkers. My guess is that this gesture would be embraced by the general public. The location they chose was politically calculated to do one of two things, one of which is happening. This Imam wanted to poke the eye of America and show the Muslim World that the terrorist have thumbed their noses to America by desecrating an area of American tragedy. Or, he wants to create a situation to make Americans appear biased and disrespecting of Muslim's in America by not building the "cultural center". Either way, he sees this as a win-win for his radical ideas and a way to embarrass the city of NY. Let's call this for what it is. As Pete always says, FOLLOW the MONEY! Who is funding this center and what is their history on disclaiming the radical elements of Islam?
Garry

 

[Nick]

Well done Nick!

Jack,

I think what bought it home to me was my recent holiday. Sitting on the plane in Manchester a few minutes to take off and there was an announcement "would Mr Mohammad please contact a member of the flight crew immediately”.

Suddenly all these irrational thoughts were going through my head, the stupidity of these thoughts came home to me on leaving the aircraft when Mr Mohammad turned out to have an English wife and a daughter named Poppy on the plane with him.

For 5 minutes sat on that plane the terrorists had won, and in my mind I was capable of thinking the worst of an innocent man who was no more a terrorist than I am.

 

[domtoni]

i just was making dinner and listening to Laura Ingram. One of her guests was this ex-palestinian terrorist:
WalidShoebat.com
Shoebat is a convert to Christianity from Islam.

As my internet connection came and went, I heard him say that Imam Rauf's comments in
English are not the same as in Arabic. If I heard this right, he is saying two different messages to two different communities.

This is the danger. Why should we believe what Media Matters says about this whole affair and use better judgement.

 

[Pat]

I had an interesting discussion about this at lunch and one of my ex-military friends with considerable middle eastern experience pointed out that there is no way the hard core muslim community will allow the mosque to be moved away from Ground Zero. It is a key symbol of the west and all that is wrong with it. It is the target they must conquer. That’s why they went at it until it was destroyed. Don't forget Muslim terrorists conducted two attacks on the World Trade Center, 1993 and 2001. A group including Ramzi Yousef perpetrated the 1993 bombing. Yousef spent time at Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, before beginning in 1991 to plan a bombing attack within the United States. Yousef's uncle is none other than Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who later was considered the principal architect of the September 11 attacks and the fellow that the CIA water boarded (queue the outrage). Mohammed gave Yousef advice and tips over the phone, and funded him with a US$660 wire transfer. As justification, Yousef mailed letters to various New York newspapers just before the attack, in which he claimed he belonged to 'Liberation Army, Fifth Battalion'. These letters made three demands: an end to all US aid to Israel, an end to US diplomatic relations with Israel, and a demand for a pledge by the United States to end interference "with any of the Middle East countries' interior affairs." He stated that the attack on the World Trade Center would be merely the first of such attacks if his demands were not met. In his letters Yousef admitted that the World Trade Center bombing was an act of terrorism, but that this was justified because "the terrorism that Israel practices (which America supports) must be faced with a similar one."
While it’s fun to blame George Bush (and Sarah Palin) for every conceivable malady (as noted earlier), blame for 911 is misplaced. This hate for what and who we are goes back to our mere presence in the Middle East and especially our support of Israel.

 

[Nick]

I had an interesting discussion about this at lunch and one of my ex-military friends with considerable middle eastern experience pointed out that there is no way the hard core muslim community will allow the mosque to be moved away from Ground Zero. It is a key symbol of the west and all that is wrong with it. It is the target they must conquer. That’s why they went at it until it was destroyed. Don't forget Muslim terrorists conducted two attacks on the World Trade Center, 1993 and 2001. A group including Ramzi Yousef perpetrated the 1993 bombing. .

Veek,

I don't know enough about this, who is it that wants to build this Mosque, is there proof it the hard core muslims, is it terrorists who is it?

Regards

Nick

 

[Mark Worthington]

The fact that the mosque developers haven't backed off the project despite the intense public opposition indicates there are hard-core elements involved.

 

[Ron Earp]

Nothing like pouring fuel on a fire. It may be the proposed mosque will qualify for public financing.

Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing | Reuters

That might start an armed revolt among some members of the US population.

 

[Nick]

That might start an armed revolt among some members of the US population.

This is what I find so difficult as any such action or thought of that action means they would be no different to any other terrorist.

The United States Department of Defense defines terrorism as “the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear;

 

[Keith]

Then why are Irish "terrorists" (of both flavours) constantly called "dissidents" by both the the British media and American sympathizers, or, do you possibly think that's why Adams and that nauseating murdering (it is alleged) idiot McGuinness suddenly got religion and signed up to the 'peace process' ?



Nick, I rather like your example of the US Department of Defence definition. May it please also include mindless & violent drunken louts that roam the streets at will, drug dealers, sex offenders, violent criminals?

I notice that the remote Island of St Kildare off the West coast of Scotland in the news again 40 or so years after it was finally evacuated. I think I may have discovered a use for it.

 

[Nick]

Nick, I rather like your example of the US Department of Defence definition. May it please also include mindless & violent drunken louts that roam the streets at will, drug dealers, sex offenders, violent criminals?

Keith,

No problem.

 

[Keith]

Thanks David for pointing out that it's Kilda not Kildare. D'oh! Homer moment.

Anyway, there aren't any doctors there either..

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Nothing like pouring fuel on a fire. It may be the proposed mosque will qualify for public financing.

Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing | Reuters

That might start an armed revolt among some members of the US population.

I would bet that if and when building starts, it will never finish. New Yorkers will make this project so expensive and time delayed with work stoppage and sabotage that it will never see completion.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

You know, I was just thinking. Those among us that are pro mosque are probably the same people that voted BO into office. They got a warm fuzzy do gooder feeling by being the first to vote a black man into the office of president, and now they are getting the same warm fuzzy do gooder feeling being so tolerant of muslims. You are so good!

 

[Doug S.]

You know, I was just thinking. Those among us that are pro mosque are probably the same people that voted BO into office. They got a warm fuzzy do gooder feeling by being the first to vote a black man into the office of president, and now they are getting the same warm fuzzy do gooder feeling being so tolerant of muslims. You are so good!

.....you say those things as if being a "fuzzy do gooder" might be a bad thing, Al :laugh: !

You know, after reading back a few pages in this thread, I sorta see what some people are saying.....there might be a contingent within the Muslim religion that believes if they build a mosque on the site of what was an obvious act of terrorism by muslims, but dedicate the mosque to the effort of promoting peace rather than terrorism, their motivation might well be to offer some sort of "healing" rather than all this gloom and doom we (me included) have been lamenting.

Yeah, maybe..........but.....

.....if they really want to promote healing within the American psyche, they could probably obtain better results by honoring the wishes of what I believe must be the great majority of Americans and put a few miles between their mosque and GZ.

OK, so I'm the eternal optimist and always want to find the silver lining on the clouds.....freely admitted.

And, yeah, Al, I must also plead guilty to being a "fuzzy do gooder", believe strongly in random acts of kindness and paying it forward.

......still don't want that mosque at GZ, though......:thumbsdown:

Cheers from Doug!!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

What to do if you fall into a conversation with someone about the terrorist attacks who doesn’t believe in retaliation:

1. Engage in conversation, and ask if military force is appropriate.

2. When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

3. Wait until he says something to the effect of "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

4. When he’s in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can!!

5. When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would be awful and he should not cause more violence.

6. Wait until he agrees, and has pledged not to commit additional violence.

7. Punch him in the face again, harder this time!!!

8. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back!!!!!!

 

[Nick]

You know, I was just thinking. Those among us that are pro mosque are probably the same people that voted BO into office. They got a warm fuzzy do gooder feeling by being the first to vote a black man into the office of president, and now they are getting the same warm fuzzy do gooder feeling being so tolerant of muslims. You are so good!

Al,

With my experiences of life I would much rather deal with a tolerant do gooder person than an extreme one.

We are all different perhaps you are an S and M type of guy as opposed to a feather duster one, whatever lights your candle.

 

[Nick]

What to do if you fall into a conversation with someone about the terrorist attacks who doesn’t believe in retaliation:

1. Engage in conversation, and ask if military force is appropriate.

2. When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

3. Wait until he says something to the effect of "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

4. When he’s in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can!!

5. When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would be awful and he should not cause more violence.

6. Wait until he agrees, and has pledged not to commit additional violence.

7. Punch him in the face again, harder this time!!!

8. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back!!!!!!

Pete,

I would actually find being punched in the face acceptable because 1 I would have a chance of defending myself or running away and living to fight another day, 2 surviving the attack.

However, if I was living in my own country minding my own business when an invading force drop a bomb killing my entire family and then tells me, their deaths is acceptable, I may very well consider joining the other side.

I also believe that if all the civilian casualties caused by the fight against terrorism had been American or British then we would not be fighting now.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Pete,

I would actually find being punched in the face acceptable because 1 I would have a chance of defending myself or running away and living to fight another day, 2 surviving the attack.

However, if I was living in my own country minding my own business when an invading force drop a bomb killing my entire family and then tells me, their deaths is acceptable, I may very well consider joining the other side.

I also believe that if all the civilian casualties caused by the fight against terrorism had been American or British then we would not be fighting now.

You may join the other side, the ones that killed your family? I really don't know what to say that would'nt be rude!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

With my experiences of life I would much rather deal with a tolerant do gooder person than an extreme one.

We are all different perhaps you are an S and M type of guy as opposed to a feather duster one, whatever lights your candle.

S and M, really, look it up before you write it!

 

[Charlie Farley]

Getting back to the insensitivity aspect of the proposed building.
Let them jump through all the bureaucratic procedures and planning discussions, just like any other proposal in that part of NY.
If they can tick all the boxes, let them build it.
If they can get anyone to build it, which i think would be a problem in NY,
organise a fund, to set up businesses that are offensive to islamic ideals,
in the immediate neighbourhood. Play them at their own game.
A casino or two, a couple of banks ( charging interest, which they consider to be usuary ), several pork themed fast food joints and restuarants.
It might even be a good idea while the site is empty, to hold the odd
Hog Roast for the general public. I'm not sure if they could ' decontaminate ' the site enough, after a few of them. Maybe also , set up , temporary one day events on the site, like a Synagogue. Perhaps an even longer term solution, would be to set up a fund to buy the site.