DEtroit USA
- Thread starter Boxerman
- Start date
Detroit is pretty embarrassing! Guess who's been running it since 1962! 51 years from one of the best cities in the US to a third world city.
At age 6 (62 years ago) I moved from inner Detroit to a northern suburb just across famous 8 Mile Road. It would have been better if we were a couple of miles further north since there has been a spillover of crime and violence from Detroit. I do not venture into Detroit more than necessary- maybe a handful of times at most a year.
However, I have watched the decay over the years and most of it can be blamed on the policies/attitudes of the people in charge since the 1960s. Mayors Archer and Bing did the best job they could, but the maleficence of prior administrations left too much to undo. The state government-- sometimes Republican and sometimes Democrat -- wanted to help Detroit at different times, but the lack of control/loss of control over the years always caused an impass.
The Kilpatrick administration's criminal acts are still in the news and more prison sentences have just been awarded. The funds that were rerouted to various pockets could have helped the good people of Detroit and would have eased some of their problems.
However, I personally believe the root of the problem goes back to the mid-60s when Coleman Young was elected Mayor of Detroit and initiated the "white flight" to the suburbs. Although this exodus strengthened his political position, it eventually gutted the business and tax support that Detroit needed for economic viability. After that, it was a long slide downhill.
The drug epidemic and period of lawlessness did much to decimate the neighborhoods that were once full of residents who maintained their property. As people abandoned their homes and business establishments, they became crack houses that eventually transitioned into burned out ruins to be bulldozed and cleared into an empty lot.
When I was in kindergarten, I went to the Jane Cooper Elementary School. There was a neighborhood consisting of numerous blocks of homes around the school. Our house was about 1/2 mile away on Marcus Street. The homes there were packed so close to each other that you could almost touch the sides of them as you stood between them.
Now instead of house, house, house, house (etc) the area is empty lot, empty lot, house, empty lot, empty lot (etc).
Don't believe me? Here is Jane Cooper school-- some photos taken in 2009:
You'll never guess where this abondoned school is located. (18 photos) : theCHIVE
Here is another set of photos of the school taken in 2008:
Jane Cooper School Georgia St Detroit 8/08 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I did a street view reconnoiter of the first school I ever went to (kindergarten and part of the first grade) and am amazed. All of the homes that used to be next to the school are gone. Not just some, but all. Now things were not great when I attended in 1950-- I remember the playground being full of broken bottles and glass that prevented us from playing out there. (I stepped on a broken bottle and cut my foot in Kindergarten and was told not to go out to the play ground by my mother). Here is the link to the view of the area:
6836 Georgia St, Detroit, MI 48211 - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
This website points to the non-existent house that used to be at 6167 Marcus... my home before we left Detroit. The businesses that used to be located on the main road (Mount Elliott Street) at the end of Marcus were gone, as well as all of the commercial buildings on the other side of Mount Elliott. It was like the aftermath of a war zone, which I am sure it was during the crack and other lawless periods that saw house after house taken over as a dope house, get burned out, then bulldozed. There are not many places I will drive to in Detroit-- and my old neighborhood is not one of them.
6167 Marcus Street Detroit Michigan - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
I hope this helps you folks with your discussion about Detroit.
--JB
However, I have watched the decay over the years and most of it can be blamed on the policies/attitudes of the people in charge since the 1960s. Mayors Archer and Bing did the best job they could, but the maleficence of prior administrations left too much to undo. The state government-- sometimes Republican and sometimes Democrat -- wanted to help Detroit at different times, but the lack of control/loss of control over the years always caused an impass.
The Kilpatrick administration's criminal acts are still in the news and more prison sentences have just been awarded. The funds that were rerouted to various pockets could have helped the good people of Detroit and would have eased some of their problems.
However, I personally believe the root of the problem goes back to the mid-60s when Coleman Young was elected Mayor of Detroit and initiated the "white flight" to the suburbs. Although this exodus strengthened his political position, it eventually gutted the business and tax support that Detroit needed for economic viability. After that, it was a long slide downhill.
The drug epidemic and period of lawlessness did much to decimate the neighborhoods that were once full of residents who maintained their property. As people abandoned their homes and business establishments, they became crack houses that eventually transitioned into burned out ruins to be bulldozed and cleared into an empty lot.
When I was in kindergarten, I went to the Jane Cooper Elementary School. There was a neighborhood consisting of numerous blocks of homes around the school. Our house was about 1/2 mile away on Marcus Street. The homes there were packed so close to each other that you could almost touch the sides of them as you stood between them.
Now instead of house, house, house, house (etc) the area is empty lot, empty lot, house, empty lot, empty lot (etc).
Don't believe me? Here is Jane Cooper school-- some photos taken in 2009:
You'll never guess where this abondoned school is located. (18 photos) : theCHIVE
Here is another set of photos of the school taken in 2008:
Jane Cooper School Georgia St Detroit 8/08 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I did a street view reconnoiter of the first school I ever went to (kindergarten and part of the first grade) and am amazed. All of the homes that used to be next to the school are gone. Not just some, but all. Now things were not great when I attended in 1950-- I remember the playground being full of broken bottles and glass that prevented us from playing out there. (I stepped on a broken bottle and cut my foot in Kindergarten and was told not to go out to the play ground by my mother). Here is the link to the view of the area:
6836 Georgia St, Detroit, MI 48211 - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
This website points to the non-existent house that used to be at 6167 Marcus... my home before we left Detroit. The businesses that used to be located on the main road (Mount Elliott Street) at the end of Marcus were gone, as well as all of the commercial buildings on the other side of Mount Elliott. It was like the aftermath of a war zone, which I am sure it was during the crack and other lawless periods that saw house after house taken over as a dope house, get burned out, then bulldozed. There are not many places I will drive to in Detroit-- and my old neighborhood is not one of them.
6167 Marcus Street Detroit Michigan - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
I hope this helps you folks with your discussion about Detroit.
--JB
At age 6 (62 years ago) I moved from inner Detroit to a northern suburb just across famous 8 Mile Road. It would have been better if we were a couple of miles further north since there has been a spillover of crime and violence from Detroit. I do not venture into Detroit more than necessary- maybe a handful of times at most a year.
However, I have watched the decay over the years and most of it can be blamed on the policies/attitudes of the people in charge since the 1960s. Mayors Archer and Bing did the best job they could, but the maleficence of prior administrations left too much to undo. The state government-- sometimes Republican and sometimes Democrat -- wanted to help Detroit at different times, but the lack of control/loss of control over the years always caused an impass.
The Kilpatrick administration's criminal acts are still in the news and more prison sentences have just been awarded. The funds that were rerouted to various pockets could have helped the good people of Detroit and would have eased some of their problems.
However, I personally believe the root of the problem goes back to the mid-60s when Coleman Young was elected Mayor of Detroit and initiated the "white flight" to the suburbs. Although this exodus strengthened his political position, it eventually gutted the business and tax support that Detroit needed for economic viability. After that, it was a long slide downhill.
The drug epidemic and period of lawlessness did much to decimate the neighborhoods that were once full of residents who maintained their property. As people abandoned their homes and business establishments, they became crack houses that eventually transitioned into burned out ruins to be bulldozed and cleared into an empty lot.
When I was in kindergarten, I went to the Jane Cooper Elementary School. There was a neighborhood consisting of numerous blocks of homes around the school. Our house was about 1/2 mile away on Marcus Street. The homes there were packed so close to each other that you could almost touch the sides of them as you stood between them.
Now instead of house, house, house, house (etc) the area is empty lot, empty lot, house, empty lot, empty lot (etc).
Don't believe me? Here is Jane Cooper school-- some photos taken in 2009:
You'll never guess where this abondoned school is located. (18 photos) : theCHIVE
Here is another set of photos of the school taken in 2008:
Jane Cooper School Georgia St Detroit 8/08 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I did a street view reconnoiter of the first school I ever went to (kindergarten and part of the first grade) and am amazed. All of the homes that used to be next to the school are gone. Not just some, but all. Now things were not great when I attended in 1950-- I remember the playground being full of broken bottles and glass that prevented us from playing out there. (I stepped on a broken bottle and cut my foot in Kindergarten and was told not to go out to the play ground by my mother). Here is the link to the view of the area:
6836 Georgia St, Detroit, MI 48211 - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
This website points to the non-existent house that used to be at 6167 Marcus... my home before we left Detroit. The businesses that used to be located on the main road (Mount Elliott Street) at the end of Marcus were gone, as well as all of the commercial buildings on the other side of Mount Elliott. It was like the aftermath of a war zone, which I am sure it was during the crack and other lawless periods that saw house after house taken over as a dope house, get burned out, then bulldozed. There are not many places I will drive to in Detroit-- and my old neighborhood is not one of them.
6167 Marcus Street Detroit Michigan - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
I hope this helps you folks with your discussion about Detroit.
--JB
However, I have watched the decay over the years and most of it can be blamed on the policies/attitudes of the people in charge since the 1960s. Mayors Archer and Bing did the best job they could, but the maleficence of prior administrations left too much to undo. The state government-- sometimes Republican and sometimes Democrat -- wanted to help Detroit at different times, but the lack of control/loss of control over the years always caused an impass.
The Kilpatrick administration's criminal acts are still in the news and more prison sentences have just been awarded. The funds that were rerouted to various pockets could have helped the good people of Detroit and would have eased some of their problems.
However, I personally believe the root of the problem goes back to the mid-60s when Coleman Young was elected Mayor of Detroit and initiated the "white flight" to the suburbs. Although this exodus strengthened his political position, it eventually gutted the business and tax support that Detroit needed for economic viability. After that, it was a long slide downhill.
The drug epidemic and period of lawlessness did much to decimate the neighborhoods that were once full of residents who maintained their property. As people abandoned their homes and business establishments, they became crack houses that eventually transitioned into burned out ruins to be bulldozed and cleared into an empty lot.
When I was in kindergarten, I went to the Jane Cooper Elementary School. There was a neighborhood consisting of numerous blocks of homes around the school. Our house was about 1/2 mile away on Marcus Street. The homes there were packed so close to each other that you could almost touch the sides of them as you stood between them.
Now instead of house, house, house, house (etc) the area is empty lot, empty lot, house, empty lot, empty lot (etc).
Don't believe me? Here is Jane Cooper school-- some photos taken in 2009:
You'll never guess where this abondoned school is located. (18 photos) : theCHIVE
Here is another set of photos of the school taken in 2008:
Jane Cooper School Georgia St Detroit 8/08 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I did a street view reconnoiter of the first school I ever went to (kindergarten and part of the first grade) and am amazed. All of the homes that used to be next to the school are gone. Not just some, but all. Now things were not great when I attended in 1950-- I remember the playground being full of broken bottles and glass that prevented us from playing out there. (I stepped on a broken bottle and cut my foot in Kindergarten and was told not to go out to the play ground by my mother). Here is the link to the view of the area:
6836 Georgia St, Detroit, MI 48211 - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
This website points to the non-existent house that used to be at 6167 Marcus... my home before we left Detroit. The businesses that used to be located on the main road (Mount Elliott Street) at the end of Marcus were gone, as well as all of the commercial buildings on the other side of Mount Elliott. It was like the aftermath of a war zone, which I am sure it was during the crack and other lawless periods that saw house after house taken over as a dope house, get burned out, then bulldozed. There are not many places I will drive to in Detroit-- and my old neighborhood is not one of them.
6167 Marcus Street Detroit Michigan - Street View, Satellite View, Street Map and Directions
I hope this helps you folks with your discussion about Detroit.
--JB
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Very interesting and sad, thanks for the post.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
It seems no matter what the thread, do we always have to have irrelevant and badly spelled comments from the usual gob shites. Sometimes I despair - it seems all they want is to up the total number of posts by writing total crap.
Back to the thread - I used to fly into Detroit regularly while working on the 747.400 in BA. Sad to see a great city in such decline and I cannot see how it can ever come back, irrespective of how much money is thrown at it. Let it go and eventually bulldoze
it - the costs will be less in the long run.
Simply put - blame the bankers in Wall street and London.
Back to the thread - I used to fly into Detroit regularly while working on the 747.400 in BA. Sad to see a great city in such decline and I cannot see how it can ever come back, irrespective of how much money is thrown at it. Let it go and eventually bulldoze
it - the costs will be less in the long run.
Simply put - blame the bankers in Wall street and London.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Spot on the money (pun intended) as usual David.
What on earth has your politically motivated comment got to do with the OP's post?
If the cap fits? I didn't get any of this "Red State" nonsense from Sean's post, just in your response. If I remember, you and Young did the same thing to me earlier this year when I posted photos of run down Detroit, and I got a right pasting. What is wrong with you eh?
I would suggest that the solution to Detroit is not more money, but more dynamic vibrancy. Bankrupcy will be healthy for the city, ossified gov structures can get undone.
What I see in detroit is virgin land and inexpensive buildings, great rail and other infrastructure. If you wanted to do any type of heavy industry Detroit has its pluses, for one, you are not going to mess anything pristine.
The problem in Detroit is lack of competitiveness due to people attitude, particularily on a city gov and union level.
Lets face it if Detroit could have an attitude change its probably a great place location wise land cost wise etc to build a factory.
There was an article a few months back written by the head of the MTA there. He said that it was impossible to fire anyone, it was even impossible to move people sideways into non interfering jobs. The MTA was not allowed to buy spare bus parts another org did that, getting parts for busses still running while others sat. Overtime costs were throught he roof due to union rules etc. In the end he suggested that bankrupcy was a good thing because the system was so broken rigid wrong etc that there was no possibility of reformation.
BTW the person put in chage of the city, the one taking it into bankrupcy is African American,
As I have said before, numbers dont lie or care about which party is in charge, when the money runs out and no more con be borrowed there is painful restructuring or things just stop. Now maybe California thinks its too big to fail, and maybe it is, but even going there means the destruction of economic vibrancy.
Detroit is what happens when people think they have an economic machine by the short and curlies. You know what the engine of detroit, the auto industry moved out. in the end they didnt have to stay. The same thing can happen on a larger scale to the country, do you think Boeing has to build aircraft in the USA. How much of the much vaunted apples products are built here.
I am not saying US workers should earn slave labor like China. What killed Detroit was not so much pay scale as retrictive labor practices, por politics promising what cant be delivered sustainably, ideas that made no long term sense save getting elected, sapped intitiative etc.
Detroit will have a rebirth after bankrupcy, because it will become efficient and competitive. The people living there will certainly be far better off than they are now.
What I see in detroit is virgin land and inexpensive buildings, great rail and other infrastructure. If you wanted to do any type of heavy industry Detroit has its pluses, for one, you are not going to mess anything pristine.
The problem in Detroit is lack of competitiveness due to people attitude, particularily on a city gov and union level.
Lets face it if Detroit could have an attitude change its probably a great place location wise land cost wise etc to build a factory.
There was an article a few months back written by the head of the MTA there. He said that it was impossible to fire anyone, it was even impossible to move people sideways into non interfering jobs. The MTA was not allowed to buy spare bus parts another org did that, getting parts for busses still running while others sat. Overtime costs were throught he roof due to union rules etc. In the end he suggested that bankrupcy was a good thing because the system was so broken rigid wrong etc that there was no possibility of reformation.
BTW the person put in chage of the city, the one taking it into bankrupcy is African American,
As I have said before, numbers dont lie or care about which party is in charge, when the money runs out and no more con be borrowed there is painful restructuring or things just stop. Now maybe California thinks its too big to fail, and maybe it is, but even going there means the destruction of economic vibrancy.
Detroit is what happens when people think they have an economic machine by the short and curlies. You know what the engine of detroit, the auto industry moved out. in the end they didnt have to stay. The same thing can happen on a larger scale to the country, do you think Boeing has to build aircraft in the USA. How much of the much vaunted apples products are built here.
I am not saying US workers should earn slave labor like China. What killed Detroit was not so much pay scale as retrictive labor practices, por politics promising what cant be delivered sustainably, ideas that made no long term sense save getting elected, sapped intitiative etc.
Detroit will have a rebirth after bankrupcy, because it will become efficient and competitive. The people living there will certainly be far better off than they are now.
Agree with your points Sean. Another thing that killed Detroit was too much reliance on one industry (stating the obvious). The east is littered with smaller cities that relied on one industry too much (coal, steel etc) only to die when that industry's day came and went. Detroit obviously did it on a much greater scale.
Bankruptcy is the only solution for Detroit to unshackle itself from the burdens of impossible to meet pension obligations and impossible to compete labor restrictions. The auto industry left because the big 3 couldn't compete with Toyota/Honda when they were paying approx $75/hour (salary and benefits) for someone to twist a wrench when Toyota is paying $45/hour in Tennessee. OK, the big 3's cars largely suck too.... Still $75/hour!!!! Impossible to understand that pay scale and how it got there.
Of course the public unions/pension plans are fighting the bankruptcy the most, while also being unwilling to negotiate at all (sounds like the White House). They really have no bargaining position and bankruptcy is inevitable. It will be very interesting to see how Detroit rebuilds once they unload the burdens. Many of their recent leaders (post Kwame) seem well-intentioned, industrious, and committed.
Bankruptcy is the only solution for Detroit to unshackle itself from the burdens of impossible to meet pension obligations and impossible to compete labor restrictions. The auto industry left because the big 3 couldn't compete with Toyota/Honda when they were paying approx $75/hour (salary and benefits) for someone to twist a wrench when Toyota is paying $45/hour in Tennessee. OK, the big 3's cars largely suck too.... Still $75/hour!!!! Impossible to understand that pay scale and how it got there.
Of course the public unions/pension plans are fighting the bankruptcy the most, while also being unwilling to negotiate at all (sounds like the White House). They really have no bargaining position and bankruptcy is inevitable. It will be very interesting to see how Detroit rebuilds once they unload the burdens. Many of their recent leaders (post Kwame) seem well-intentioned, industrious, and committed.
"You are new here and you obviously are not aware of this, but most of us have vowed to never start a divisive one sided political thread, they just make everyone angry."
Nobody made a vow like that, and not only will you take serious issue with anything you don't agree with but you're the only one that gets angry.
Why don't you just go and troll somewhere else.
Just in case anyone is "new" here, this problem isn't "new" by any means..
(Always ends up with saying "Lets talk about GT40's instead", which is a sure sign he's lost the argument)
ergo: (Notice the date)
Nobody made a vow like that, and not only will you take serious issue with anything you don't agree with but you're the only one that gets angry.
Why don't you just go and troll somewhere else.
Just in case anyone is "new" here, this problem isn't "new" by any means..
(Always ends up with saying "Lets talk about GT40's instead", which is a sure sign he's lost the argument)
ergo: (Notice the date)
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
I think its best if you continue your little circle jerk here in the paddock without my input.
I'm tired of trying to explain that there are two sides to each discussion. I'm tired of six against one attacks and and I'm very tired of third graders making fun of my name. Goodby!
I'm tired of trying to explain that there are two sides to each discussion. I'm tired of six against one attacks and and I'm very tired of third graders making fun of my name. Goodby!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU]I'm Tired Madeline Kahn Blazing Saddles - YouTube[/ame]
Ok Jim you see, an insult "circle jerk".
As I seem to be the genesis of what is going on here, some thoughts on this.
Jim I think its great to have another voice a corntrarian view. As you say there are two sides. Do you not see that you are unable to see or even acknowledge the other side. When challenged with things you know to be right you resort to insult because logic provides you with no answer you would like.
If you think about it, your area of divergence with mine is purely over economics, not social issues. You go beserk over detroit because its the very economics and the patterns behind it that ruined the place. Surely an open mind can see that the same attitudes and policies are writ large all over the USA with potentialy similar results.
I am not for Republicans or Democrats. I am most definitley against blind aherance to the dogma of either party.
Republicans are stuck in the a 1950's leave it to beaver social fantasy, which was not realistic then and completly untenable now. Democrats are stuck in some glory day fantasy of the late 60's early 70's when they brought about significant social change and change in attitudes. Those changes were largely wrought and those days are also long over.
As a nation we need to move on with maturity. That means understanding that social change social aceptance are agiven. Programs need to fit within what is realiticaly eaconomicaly possible, killing the goose that lays the golden egg as in the case of Detroit and latterly california is not a viable answer, just look at Europe. All these programs on theoir present course will do is bankrupt the system ending the benefit of the programs int he fiorst place. Even if social anger say punish the billionaires, there are not enough rich people wealthy enough to fix this, in fact not even close.
The only way to afford all those good things we want to do is to earn it as a nation, 120k of debt per family(and thats just on a federal level) is not going to acheive that, its taking us backwards.
Saying corps need to pay more salaries is on its face a great populist idea. The facts for minimum wage earners are this. 46% work for small business, these are 10 employees of less, probably your gardening service. Of the balance take Mcdionalds as an example. Most of these are franchisess, the average operating profit is 2.6%. The answer to higher wages is product cost goes up.
Flipping burgers is not a career, its a sucky transitional job, its bad and pays bad, great motivation to work hard at getting out of there to something better. True in many cases these days there is not something better because people are either dependant and things comming to them, or more likely the economy and opportunity sucks.
Governemnt cannot mandate opportunity, what gov can do is allow opportunity to flourish, more taxes and innapropriate regulation is not the way to have opportunity. These are economic rules, they run on math, regulation is not bigger than math, it may cause distrotion and weird prifits somewhere but ultimatly decline.
So the question is how do we have an equitable society in terms of opportunity, with economic vibrancy and opportunity for those who wish to avail themselvs of it. I would suggest that more of the same from either party is not he answer.
The world has changed, the dogma needs to move on. On may Social issues despite some excesses the Dems are on target. Socialy the repubs lost the plot, they need to get off gender issues and gay rights. If late term abortions are offensive and the latest poll says 68% of people believe they are lets adress late term abortionbs, but not the concept entirely.
Gun rights like abortion rights are constitutionaly protected, if people dont like either they shoudl take it up with the court or go for a constituitiuonal convention, otherwise accept that enough people like one or the other or both that those rights are here to stay, and lets move on.
Yes some companies are abusive, hell even that darling of the left apple has 85 billuion ofshore tax free. But its not 1920 anymore, unions did their job, worker rights and decent pay in most industries is enshrined, more demands are just destructive.
Mostly as a nation we need to find a way of getting rid of ossfied beuracracy and progarams, these are parasitical and consume more than the 30% deficit. So far I dont see either party with a plan on this. In fact the latest bipartisan budget talks are all about how to get from under the sequestor for pet programs be they military or social welfare, with no reform. For shame I say.
"Mostly as a nation we need to find a way of getting rid of ossfied beuracracy and progarams, these are parasitical and consume more than the 30% deficit. So far I dont see either party with a plan on this. In fact the latest bipartisan budget talks are all about how to get from under the sequestor for pet programs be they military or social welfare, with no reform. For shame I say.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY!
EXACTLY!
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Well said Sean.
As a side note to the discussion of Detroit, a few days ago a doctor from Texas purchased probably the largest eyesore in the city: the old Packard Motors plant. The questionable thing is that the area could have been acquired in September for $1 million but the doctor bid $6 million. I guess those folks in Texas have a little more pocket cash to play with.
Statement from winning bidder on Packard Plant raises concern | The Detroit News
Statement from winning bidder on Packard Plant raises concern | The Detroit News
This article has a little more content, including "then and now" photos of the Packard plant.
Packard Plant auction winners release bizarre statement, still haven't paid | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
Packard Plant auction winners release bizarre statement, still haven't paid | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
