DEtroit USA

[Robert May Eng.]

All things considered the powers that be in Detroit have a monumental task on hand. History lessons aside how can any administration drag the place out of the mire when it has failed industry and half the original population. The size of the infrastructure remains the same and will need maintaining as will all of its social programs which must be on overload. Perhaps its time to chuck massive investment into the place rather than introduce austerity and put it back on track as a competitive world leader in car manufacturing. A newer leaner Detroit maybe. Look what the Indians have done with Landrover /Jaguar.

Bob

 

[Keith]

The Then & Now photographs - tragic..

To see it full of working men and now in this state - it's a total abandonment of civic pride.

 

[Larry L.]

Detroit is pretty embarrassing! Guess who's been running it since 1962! 51 years from one of the best cities in the US to a third world city.

Uh huh. 'Run by those with exactly the same failed econ/political philosophies as the current crop running D.C. Look at the damage the current admin has created just since '08.

W/o a major shift in the way things are now being done, the U.S. will BE Detroit in our lifetimes, and I have no confidence at all that the present "leadership"(?) of either major party is even capable of employing the mindset necessary to make the needed change happen. That's especially true where the Demos are concerned. They absolutely refuse to even consider meaningful spending cuts. Reid is the poster boy in that department.

Add to that the fact we now have more 'gimme-gimmes' casting ballots in this country than ever before who'll only vote for those who'll provide them with ever more "free"(?!) goodies at the expense of 'the OTHER guy', and the road block to real solutions is pretty obvious.

 

[Sean]

All things considered the powers that be in Detroit have a monumental task on hand. History lessons aside how can any administration drag the place out of the mire when it has failed industry and half the original population. The size of the infrastructure remains the same and will need maintaining as will all of its social programs which must be on overload. Perhaps its time to chuck massive investment into the place rather than introduce austerity and put it back on track as a competitive world leader in car manufacturing. A newer leaner Detroit maybe. Look what the Indians have done with Landrover /Jaguar.

Bob

Bob chuck massive investment from where. If you are suggesting gov I would say that policy gave you in the UK British Leyland. What is needed is the harsh realities of no money, and attitude change which then leads to vibrancy, like BMW mini.

Yeah lots of infrastructure will be abandoned and bulldozed. Better to look at Detroit as agreenfield without too much envirpomental concerns and good rail/air infrastructure.

 

[Sean]

Uh huh. 'Run by those with exactly the same failed econ/political philosophies as the current crop running D.C. Look at the damage the current admin has created just since '08.

W/o a major shift in the way things are now being done, the U.S. will BE Detroit in our lifetimes, and I have no confidence at all that the present "leadership"(?) of either major party is even capable of employing the mindset necessary to make the needed change happen. That's especially true where the Demos are concerned. They absolutely refuse to even consider meaningful spending cuts. Reid is the poster boy in that department.

Add to that the fact we now have more 'gimme-gimmes' casting ballots in this country than ever before who'll only vote for those who'll provide them with ever more "free"(?!) goodies at the expense of 'the OTHER guy', and the road block to real solutions is pretty obvious.

Larry, its all pretty much spot on, I dont think either party has a clue. But then our pols are mostly social misfits lawyers and such who never really had to deal with meeting a payroll.

As to the free goodies. 70% of people still meaningfully work, I dont think they want to give free goodies. As long as we trap the electorate into a mindset that voting republican is an anti gender, near racist, isolationist yet big spend on military toys, then its going to be hard to change things. What is needed is a real fiscal conservative party that is socialy liberal(within affordability) to neutral without kooks like Michelle Bachman. In other words a a party for working sentient adults.

 

[Keith]

I do not subscribe to the view that it's "Detroit today the rest of the USA tomorrow".

Detroit surely had it's own unique set of circumstances not present in 90% of other major US cities.

Provided, that is, lessons are learned.

I would be looking at Defence Industries right now.

 

[Sean]

 

[Sean]

I do not subscribe to the view that it's "Detroit today the rest of the USA tomorrow".

Detroit surely had it's own unique set of circumstances not present in 90% of other major US cities.

Provided, that is, lessons are learned.

I would be looking at Defence Industries right now.

See chart above. Its not just about defence. Look at the Uk you ruled the waves, now you have hardly any ships barely an industry. Unions took care of industry and and social programs took care of any available income for investment.

Tax, and spend on non productive things does not take you anywhere good. That is not to say we should not have taxes or social programs, but they need to be in proportion to the rest and available productive growth, not at the expense of. We need a dynamic productive society, sometimes goverment help is warranted, but goverment protections of industries leads to ossified industries noncompetitive like BL. Goverment itself is bloated and inefficient, I see nothimg in washington from either party that leads me to belive we are not following the same patrh as detroit writ large. The difference is its still changeable.

Yes the individual facts in Detroit are different to a more complex national economy, but with half the sates now having massive unfunded pension obligations(not even part of the federal debt above) and the federal buget massivly in defict even with near zero interest costs on its debt, what exactly makes one believe the trend is any different to Detroit. You know we have cops who retire at age 48 with full salary as pension and medical for life. The best jobs today are governemnt ones, with promises to employess the funding for which is massivley underwater.

Then we have have social security that does not take in enough to meet its obligations to retirees, we have medicare which is underfunded and obanacare comming which will turn out the same as all gov programs. We have legislation which enriches insurance companies and an entire politcal system run by the legal trade.

I could go on, but the point is that the burden placed on those who work means that things are not sustainable. The curren tax rate when you take federal, state and property is amongst the highest in the world and there is still a massive deficit which is just a future tax being incurred now.

So yes you are right, it does not have to be the whole country as you say "provided the lessons are learned" but I dont see any lessons being learned. Actualy thats not true, the current group of polls has learned the Tony Blair lesson, promise lots of stuff to people that others will pay for and you get elected.

 

[Keith]

True about the UK but, we have no mineral resources left (apart from coal) - everything has to come in by sea or air. Unless you massively subsidise industry (not legal in EEC) there is no way to sustain it, or be competitive and it doesn't make any sense anyway.

Under Thatcher, Britain abandoned it's industrial legacy, sometimes too brutally, and shrunk the State, invested in sunrise industry and made itself a world leader in the service industries. Oddly enough, manufacturing has crept back in, but in a more specialised and high tech way, plus foreign car makers have invested billions in new car plants providing thousands of jobs. Ok, whilst it's not 'British' exactly - it's made in Britain and that's the point.

 

[Ian Anderson]

True about the UK but, we have no mineral resources left (apart from coal) - everything has to come in by sea or air. Unless you massively subsidise industry (not legal in EEC) there is no way to sustain it, or be competitive and it doesn't make any sense anyway.

Under Thatcher, Britain abandoned it's industrial legacy, sometimes too brutally, and shrunk the State, invested in sunrise industry and made itself a world leader in the service industries. Oddly enough, manufacturing has crept back in, but in a more specialised and high tech way, plus foreign car makers have invested billions in new car plants providing thousands of jobs. Ok, whilst it's not 'British' exactly - it's made in Britain and that's the point.

Keith

Re the UK car industry
Is that because the UK Government is easier to deal with and / or subsidised the plant build, business rates etc more than say France / Germany or other EU country?

Ian

 

[Keith]

Possibly because of 'Enterprise' type schemes yes. The plants have been targeted at high unemployment spots and I think they've been a big success. They came about because it was one way to beat any import tariffs and if course the huge available skilled work forces from ship building, mining and steel production. I don't think anyone who now works at Honda's Swindon engine plant would hanker for the 'old' days.

These schemes have also helped re-establish the British workman as a viable option, despite the fact they work for foreign investment.

I cannot speak for other EU countries, but there again, they may not have been former world leaders of the Industrial Revolution, bankrupted by two ruinous World wars, have the remains of their heavy industries destroyed by militant unions run by inept management and have to import all their raw materials by sea and air, so comparisons may be invalid.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

Bob chuck massive investment from where. If you are suggesting gov I would say that policy gave you in the UK British Leyland. What is needed is the harsh realities of no money, and attitude change which then leads to vibrancy, like BMW mini.

Yeah lots of infrastructure will be abandoned and bulldozed. Better to look at Detroit as agreenfield without too much envirpomental concerns and good rail/air infrastructure.

With respect Sean there is no recovery scheme in the world that will work without finance, workforce mindset would as you pointed out help but without the cash its going nowhere. Perhaps leaving things as they are would be more expensive. Is there no graph for this there seems to be for everything else

Bob

 

[Keith]

We're sick of graphs...:veryangry:

 

[Larry L.]

I do not subscribe to the view that it's "Detroit today the rest of the USA tomorrow".

Many are in your camp...and I pray YOU are right.

I would be looking at Defence Industries right now.

I agree with that...to a point. I'm all for getting rid of the obviously stupid stuff like the $150 hammers, $900 toilet seats, and nuke blast survivable coffee makers. But, I especially want to see the practice of building things like ships the navy DOESN'T WANT soley to keep the pork flowing to people in Sen. Sludgepump's district. And I'm ALSO sick of the idiot policy that dictates every dime of this-or-that unit's budget HAS TO BE SPENT by quarter's end or that unit's budget will be cut for NEXT quarter. :veryangry:

I gunna take a wee break now and allow my B.P. to settle down...

 

[Mark]

If I see one more person proclaiming Red states Vs Blue states as some sort of vilification that Red is bad and blue, is by it's very nature, righteously perfect, enlightened and all-knowing, or visa versa for that matter, I think I am going to PUKE!

The mere suggestion that ALL people in one colour must be wrong, or cause all the problems, is just so fucking stupid, I can't get my head around anyone thinking that that kind of statement, or basis of argument has any merit whatsoever.

That kind of thinking is THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS!

 

[Sean]

With respect Sean there is no recovery scheme in the world that will work without finance, workforce mindset would as you pointed out help but without the cash its going nowhere. Perhaps leaving things as they are would be more expensive. Is there no graph for this there seems to be for everything else

Bob

The USA is still the venture capital centre of the world. If you have somethign good and viable there is not shortage of finance.

Maybe what you are suggesting is statal finance to prop up and maintain inefficient non competitive non productive indsutries. I dont think there is private or much statal finance in the USA for that.

The reason you have a car industry today in the UK is because the old one was so comprehensively destroyed between statal mismanagement and union work practices. This meant that work practices could be changed, and there was still residual value in the brands making it intereting for foreigners to provide a lifeline and negotiate viable manufacturing terms. Part of the pull was of course the English "brands" which had cachet. A high end car brand costs billions to establish, in the Uk they could be bought for relative pennies and labout had no choice but to agree to productive manufaturing practices. But it took pretty much the entire destruction of Uk car manufactiure and the closing down of most major plants for the reality to set in.

So yes things are saveable, at least on the small scale of car manufacture, saving acountry is more difficult. in any event why wait for near total destruction before aking up, evn then ones indistries are now in foreign hands.

 

[Mark]

And I'm ALSO sick of the idiot policy that dictates every[/I] dime of this-or-that unit's budget HAS TO BE SPENT by quarter's end or that unit's budget will be cut for NEXT quarter. :veryangry:

Nail, Head, well hit Sir!

Many of us here regularly argue for open, annual audits of Government and their agencies, central and local.

This issue alone, if demanded, would force an utter re-think of how our countries are run.

 

[Sean]

If I see one more person proclaiming Red states Vs Blue states as some sort of vilification that Red is bad and blue, is by it's very nature, righteously perfect, enlightened and all-knowing, or visa versa for that matter, I think I am going to PUKE!

The mere suggestion that ALL people in one colour must be wrong, or cause all the problems, is just so fucking stupid, I can't get my head around anyone thinking that that kind of statement, or basis of argument has any merit whatsoever.

That kind of thinking is THE CAUSE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS!

Exactly

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

The operative words in your post Keith, are "if the lessons are learned". Unfortunately I don't think they are being learned. When you have such massive debt, see Sean's graph, (sorry) unless spending is cut by Government the house of cards will collapse. You cannot keep printing money and increasing debt, it won't work in the long term. Increasing taxes will not work either, because there are not enough tax payers left. If you add together income tax, land tax, Vat, stamp duty, excise, import duty and some I've probably left out I'm guessing, yes guessing because I'm to lazy to research it, that total tax paid by the worker is up around 70%.
Cut backs in government spending will mean increased job losses and cut backs in social security and welfare. Now here is the rub, that sort of exercise will cost votes. I do not know of any politition from any persuasion and I'm thinking any country who is man enough to bite the bullet and do what will cost them votes and maybe Office, until circumstance forces them to change. Which means they will keep printing money and keep increasing debt, and kick the can down the road to your grandchildren.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

Someone has to get the ball rolling. Welsh industry was faced with similar issues to Detroit and they set about changing the face of the place. Government money was used with incentives which has attracted many new and successful industries. Wales.com - Creative Industries

The first move has to be made by government , no one in their right mind would invest in the run down industrial areas of Detroit. It has to be brought up to spec.

Bob