Fire Suppression Systems

[Ricardo Montalvo]

I have 2 hand fire extinguishers installed, but I would like to add a full suppression system.

What type, what size, and where are builders locating their fire suppression bottles and nozzles?

 

[Howard Jones]

Here's a couple:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/saf-lt5aab/media/images

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/saf-rs5aab/media/images

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sts-9302/media/images

5 pounds is enough but 10 is better if you have the room. Better than enough? Hell I don't know how much is too much but I am pretty sure if you set off a 5 pounder and it doesn't put out the fire then it wasn't doing to go out without the fire truck. I have seen a 5 pound halon tank depleted in a rather large boat and that was a LOT of halon. The FE types work just about the same as far a efficiency goes.

I am going to mount mine under the knees in front of the passenger seat. One nozzle under the dash pointed at the chest of the driver and the other in the engine room at the front aimed rearward at the top of the motor. Mine is a 5 pounder.

The bottom line is 3 to 5 hundred dollars is very little money considering the alternative.

If you have a powder type remove it from the car as soon as you get the on board system installed. You don't want to clean up 2.5 pounds of powder believe me.

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

Howard, where are you putting the bottle? I'm aiming to buy a DOT approved system and put the bottle in the interior passenger footwell (up high). I'm having a hard time finding the dimensions of the bottles. I'm going to call up Safecraft for dimensions.

 

[Jim T]

Richardo, you are wise in specifying a DOT approved system! You should also look for a U/L and/or FM listed product. Unfortunately, there are no shortage of unscrupulous frauds in the fire protection industry. Some of these frauds modify a regular portable fire extinguisher by attaching a cable and a remote pull hand and call ita “fire suppression system”.


Another consideration is what type of extinguishing agent to choose. There are four (4) classes of fires: Class “A” = Normal Combustibles (paper, wood, textiles,etc.)
Class “B” = Flammable Liquids
Class “C” = Live Electrical Fires
Class “D” = Combustible Metals (Magnesium, Lithium, Titanium, etc.)


Any U/L or FM listed portable fire extinguisher will have a numeric rating followed by a alphabetic class. The number indicates the approximate square footage the extinguisher is designed to extinguish. The a alphabetic class denotes the type of hazard the extinguisher can safely be used on. Example: a 4A-40B:C rating indicates that the extinguisher is capable of extinguishing approx. 4 sq. ft. of class “A” material and the 40 “B” indicates that the extinguisher is capable of extinguishing approx. 40 sq. ft. of flammable liquids. The “C” denotes that the extinguishing agent is a non-conductor and can be safely used on live electrical fires.


Additional considerations: You do not want to use water to extinguish a electrical fire for fear of electrocution; additionally, water will damage electrical components. There are listed Alcohol Film Forming Foam (AKA: AFFF or “A” Triple “F”) systems on the market. AFFF is a fantastic class “B” fire extinguishing agent; however, I personally would not install an AFFF system in my car because of the potential of residual damage and possible corrosion.


Multi-Purpose A:B:C rated extinguishing agent is also a fantastic fire fighting tool; however, it too is highly corrosive and the fine, free flow chemical is virtually impossible to clean up.


Tip: An auto racing supply company my not be the best source for fire protection information. I would recommend locating a local fire extinguisher distributor in your area, Preferably one that is is a member of the National Association of Fire Equipment Distributors (NAFED) Typically, NAFED members subscribe to a higher standard. After you have educated yourself, and decided what type portable fire extinguisher and/or fire suppression system and extinguishing agent is best for your application; then an then only, go to auto racing supply house or on-line sources and shop for the best price!


One more tip: I personally would NOT buy any extinguisher with a plastic valve, regardless of the listing or rating!!!!!!!!!

Summation: I plan on installing a Chrome 2.5# Haltron portable fire extinguisher on my roll bar and am considering a Amerex's “Small Bus” FE36 Fire Suppression system for my engine compartment.
Quite honestly, I have not completed all of my home work on the “Small Bus” system yet, but what I have seen so far, it looks good. I can tell you that Amerex has been around for several decades and is a very reputable company that produces many high quality U/L & FM listed products.


Sorry for the long post, but I hope that this was of some help.
Jim

 

[Dave]

.... Sorry for the long post, but I hope that this was of some help.
Jim

Posts like this are what makes this forum better than most. Great info.

 

[Jim T]

Clarification: A Department of Transportation (DOT) approval only applies to the “Cylinder” (some say fire bottle); the approval dose NOT extend to the fire suppressant agent or the associated hardware or detection devices! A DOT approval is simply signifying that the cylinder was manufactured to a set of standards proven capable of withstanding the pressure range of the agent it was designed to contain.
Jim

 

[Jim T]

Posts like this are what makes this forum better than most. Great info.

Dave,
Glad to finally contribute to this forum! I been feeling like a bit of a leach, I have been soaking up information and asking a lot of questions to which members have generously shared their build experiences with me.


I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, not only have I not yet taken delivery of my car....I have never even seen an SLC in person!


This was my opportunity to “pay back” and contribute!
Jim

 

[Jim T]

Here's a couple:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/saf-lt5aab/media/images

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/saf-rs5aab/media/images

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sts-9302/media/images

5 pounds is enough but 10 is better if you have the room. Better than enough? Hell I don't know how much is too much but I am pretty sure if you set off a 5 pounder and it doesn't put out the fire then it wasn't doing to go out without the fire truck. I have seen a 5 pound halon tank depleted in a rather large boat and that was a LOT of halon. The FE types work just about the same as far a efficiency goes.

I am going to mount mine under the knees in front of the passenger seat. One nozzle under the dash pointed at the chest of the driver and the other in the engine room at the front aimed rearward at the top of the motor. Mine is a 5 pounder.

The bottom line is 3 to 5 hundred dollars is very little money considering the alternative.

If you have a powder type remove it from the car as soon as you get the on board system installed. You don't want to clean up 2.5 pounds of powder believe me.

Howard, where are you putting the bottle? I'm aiming to buy a DOT approved system and put the bottle in the interior passenger footwell (up high). I'm having a hard time finding the dimensions of the bottles. I'm going to call up Safecraft for dimensions.

Some observations:

1. In perusing the Safecraft information on the Summit Racing site; two of the three fire suppressant systems contain Halon 1301. Approximately ten years ago, the U.S EPA declared Halon 1301 an ozone depleting substance. As such; it is illegal to sell or recharge a Halon 1301 cylinder. I know that the Pentagon, some commercial airlines and a very small amount of specific applications were issued a waiver. Possibly the auto racing industry was also issued a waiver that I'm unaware of. But I would certainly check into it before making a purchase.
2. None of the three systems indicate that they are U/L and/or FM listed. This would be a big deal for me!
3. There is no mention in the literature as how to mount the cylinder. Unless the internal siphon tube is specifically designed to accommodate “Horizontal” mounting, the system will not completely discharge and therefore not function properly. I don't see were there is enough room under the dash or the passenger seat to mount the cylinder vertically. The horizontal mount would be an extremely important issue to investigate! Also, I would want see the answer published by the system manufacture, not just take the word of a reseller.
4. Of the three systems offered by Safecraft, the only one I personally would consider is the FE36 agent cylinder. However, the same concerns regarding listings and mounting apply here too!
5. The literature is very vague; I would want to know more before making a purchase.
6. As I stated in another post....only the cylinder is DOT approved, not the entire system!
7. I totally agree with Howard...you don't want to clean up 2.5# of dry chemical! Jim

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

Great info Jim! Those are helpful questions to ask while researching which system to select.

Which fire suppression system do you plan to install?

 

[Jim T]

Summation: I plan on installing a Chrome 2.5# Haltron portable fire extinguisher on my roll bar and am considering a Amerex's “Small Bus” FE36 Fire Suppression system for my engine compartment.
Quite honestly, I have not completed all of my home work on the “Small Bus” system yet, but what I have seen so far, it looks good.Jim

<<<CORECTION>>>
Please disregard my recommendation of the Amerex “Small Bus” system. I just spoke with the manufacture and was informed that the extinguishing agent in their Small Bus System is ABC Dry Chemical. I was originally under the impression thatthis was a “Clean Agent” system. I do NOT want to install dry chemical in my car!!!!


I apologize for any confusion!


My extinguishing agent of choice is DuPont FE36 (clean agent); now I'm trying to find a manufacture that makes a decent FE36 system rated for vehicle installation. I'm going to make some calls and will keep you posted on my findings.
Jim

 

[Doc Kaler]

I haven't installed my setup yet, but I am using the SPA AFFF 4.0 bottle. Purchased from Performance Racing. I note that an AFFF setup needs immediate inspection if it freezes (not much of a problem where I live).....

 

[Jim T]

I haven't installed my setup yet, but I am using the SPA AFFF 4.0 bottle. Purchased from Performance Racing. I note that an AFFF setup needs immediate inspection if it freezes (not much of a problem where I live).....

Doc, as I stated in my post #4: “I personally would not want to discharge a blanket of liquid/protein based foam over my engine compartment”. AFFF is an excellent class “B” fire extinguishing agent; however, it is extremely messy, difficult to clean up and could damage electrical components.


I suppose one could justify the clean up and possible damage in a actual fire situation. However, how about an accidental discharge? Accidental (false) discharge's of stationary systems secured to walls located in buildings happen all the time. Here you have a system that is located in the hot engine compartment of a car that is vibrating and bouncing around. I am just not willing to take that chance as long as “Clean Agent” alternatives are available. This is a personal decision each owner will have to make on their own!
Jim

 

[Doc Kaler]

Hi Jim,

I see your point. I don't plan to place the fire suppression bottle in the engine compartment, only the nozzles. I hadn't heard of accidental discharges...that could be messy. However, I would certainly not care to have the need to clean up if a fire actually occurs...me first....car second. :thumbsup:

Let us know if you find a suitable fire suppression setup.

Here is an updated system from SPA and sold by Performance Racing Group:

SPA EXTREME Fire System [SPA-01-SPAEX 2.5] - $1,293.80 : Performance Racing Group, The Professionals Choice - Now available to the Public!

No residue.

 

[Dave Lindemann]

Novec 1230 is amazing stuff - though in its natural state it is a liquid, not a gas as stated in their description. I've observed a demonstration where a running laptop is submerged in a tank of the liquid without ill effect. It is also becoming more common in larger data centers and museums.

Dave L

 

[Ben]

Here you go:

NASCAR® Driver Greg Biffle Demos 3M

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

How does the 1230 compare to Duponts FE36? I read that the Halon replacements are not as effective as halon was/is.

 

[Howard Jones]

I called Pegasus Racing and they said that Halon and FE 36 bottles can't be refilled. They do however refill AFFF systems.

Here link to their refill page:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FIREREFILL

The AFFF systems are a water based type that can be hosed off with fresh water after use without dammage to the car from the agent. This is the real advantage to the gas types like Halon and FE36. Just clear the gas with fresh air and your are back in business.

You will need to replace the bottle. Replacement FE36 page here:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FIRESYSSFI

Halon replacement bottles here:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FIRESYSFB

I like the idea of no cleanup and it's worth it to me to just replace the bottle if I need to.

The cost to save your car will be about 200 bucks with the two gas types and about 1/2 that for the refillable AFFF system.

100 grand car..........200 bucks to save it...... easy question to answer for me.

All of their systems are SCCA approved. So at least you will have a system that is currently being raced by a LOT of people.


Again the bottom line on my part here is to get people thinking about what in the hell they are going to do if they have a minor fire like a little fuel leak at the carburetor that can be put out quickly with a system thus saving the car.

Or......... stand there and watch it burn to the ground.................. The big bad fuel tank split open fire with 20 gals of fuel under the car is probably something that will not be saved anyway, but these systems will give you a few seconds to exit the car.

No matter what you do decide on, do something before you need it.

By the way all these systems can be mounted on their side according to Pegasus Racing. I like the spot in front of the seat under the knees of the passenger. This is a very easy place to inspect for tech people and to service for the owner. I don't like handhelds for two reasons. First you must remain in the car to retrieve it, and they are small with limmited capacity.

 

[Jim T]

How does the 1230 compare to Duponts FE36? I read that the Halon replacements are not as effective as halon was/is.

Ricardo, I'm only semi-familiar with Novec 1230 and am presently in the process of doing some research on it. I will tell you that base upon previous experience; two things seem to happen when either the 3M or DuPont name appears on a product:
Number 1:- it's going to be expensive; HOWEVER....
Number 2:- it's going to be a quality product and work well!


As far as Halon replacement agents being less effective than Halon....there may be some truth to that statement. In comparing U/L ratings of Halon 1211 and FE36 portable fire extinguishers; the FE36 ratings are about half that of the comparable size Halon 1211. Example: One manufactures 5# FE36 portable fire extinguisher U/L rating is 5B:C vs. a 5# Halon 1211 U/L rating of 10B:C. Its important to note that ratings are going to very slightly from mfg. to mfg. but no significantly.


Additionally, I'm under the impression that it takes a slightly larger quantity of Halon 1301 replacement agents to achieve the same concentration as that of Halon 1301.


Ricardo, I'm sill researching what I consider to be a decent fire suppression for our cars. As soon as some people return my calls, I'll post my opinion.


Jim

 

[Dave Lindemann]

I'll just throw this out there - take it for what it's worth. If there's fire in the engine compartment involving FUEL I'd want AFFF. Why? It smothers the fire and if properly deployed (installed per manufacturer's recommendations) will prevent re-ignition - there is a reason it is used in aircraft hangars to protect multi-million dollar aircraft. It also washes off with water (it is water based). Clean agents like Novec 1230 in particular work well too but to a degree they rely upon a level of containment to work well which can be a challenge in a car.

In my opinion, any discussion of Halon is pointless - you can't have the bottle refilled as far as I know.

Regards,
Dave L

 

[Jim T]

Hi folks,
I'm probably 6 months away from installing a fire suppression system in my SLC; however, I realize that several members of this forum are at or nearing that stage of their build. Therefore in an effort to contribute to this forum, I would do my research little early.


After doing some research and speaking with some well informed experts in the fire protection industry, I have decided on a fire suppression system manufacture and selected a fire extinguishing agent that I feel is best suited for MY SLC application and comfort level. The following is not intended as a recommendation; this is simply a report on what I decided and why!


I will be installing a Fire-Trak Fire Suppression-Race System.


Fire-Trak is a division of Metalcraft, Inc. which is a well established firm that is a leading producer of marine systems and large special hazard fire suppression systems and a verity of other quality products.
http://automatedfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Fire-Trak-brochure-page-11.jpg
Fire Extinguishing Agent: FM-200

• Fire-Trak Fire Suppression-Race Systems are also available with Novec 1230 extinguishing agent.

• DuPont FM-200 and 3M Novec 1230 are fairly comparable fire suppression agents.

I choose FM-200 for the following reasons:

• FM-200 is a “Clean Agent” (so is Novec) 1230!

• Altho booth agents discharge as a liquified gas vapor; FM-200 tends to discharge less droplets than Novec 1230. FM-200 and is closer to being a pure gas vapor. FM-200 has been around for several decades and has a very impressive track record of protecting some of the most valuable special applications in the world!

• FM-200 is slightly more available and my local fire extinguisher distributor is capable of recharging FM-200 but not Novec 1230. Note: that situation may be reversed in your area and either cylinder can be sent back to Fire-Trak for recharge.

• Booth Fire-Trak models can be mounted either vertically or horizontally.

Model: RHFC 100MC-SV-Part# 130-528 10.0 Lbs. Pull Kit-Refillable $1,280
10 Lbs. Pull Kit Consists of: 10 Lbs. Charged Cylinder, Mounting Bracket, 2- Port Control Head, Remote Pull Station w/cable, 4-Discharge Nozzles, Stainless Steel Flex Discharge Line (specify lengths)


Approvals: Cylinder is DOT Approved
Meets NHRA Rules
SFI Approved


Weight of Charged 10 Lbs. Capacity Cylinder: 14 Lbs.


Conclusion: A number of factors entered into my decision; there are several excellent fire suppression agents. Just as this is not a perfect world, there is not (IMO) a perfect vehicle fire suppression agent. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. You have to keep in mind that none of these extinguishing agents currently used in race car protection were specifiably designed and developed for a vehicle application. Originally AFFF, Dry Chemical, FE36, FM-200, Halatron, Norvec 1230 or Water Mist were all developed for other specific applications. Putting these existing agents into a mobile application was just a simple/inexpensive way of developing a new market.


Each of these extinguishing agents have their advantages and disadvantages; therefore, each owner has to decide for themselves what fire suppression system manufacture and extinguishing agent is best suited for their application and comfort level.


Unfortunately, I have to conclude by saying that there is a lot of after market crap on the out there and some unscrupulous venders; so suffice it to say...”buyer beware”!


This thread has been a good discussion and hopefully beneficial.
Best of luck,
Jim