This would price a lot of people out of flying!
User fees in White House FY2013 budget
User fees in White House FY2013 budget
flying user fee
- Thread starter Al Wohlstrom
- Start date
Interesting, Al.
It's not $100 per person, it's $100 per flight. OK, so that might be a little steep for the average private airplane owner, but if you spread that $100 cost out over the passenger load on a jet airliner it would most often be $1 or less per person.
Here's the issue that worries me:
“Once the collection system is imposed, new fees and fee increases bypass the congressional approval process that currently keeps excise taxes in check."
Yep....fee "creep". Only $100 right now, but maybe $200 by 2015, $400 by 2020...but, then, look at the cost of fuel, it keeps rising but we keep driving. I predict that even at $500 per flight the addition of $5/ticket to a passenger airplane carrying 100 passengers would not price them out of the market....fuel surcharges, yes, but not this "minimal" fee....and if you've done much flying, you know the Air Traffic control system in our country is having huge problems keeping up with demand.
I, for one, like the idea that the cost of using the system can be spread out among those who actually USE the system, keeping the general public from having to support the costs of a system that they don't use.
Guys, guys, guys....I've said it before, it costs to enjoy the benefits of improved technology, whether it's new automotive technology for our projects that use roads or a nationwide system hoping to keep track of increased air traffic.
.....not to mention that if the jetliners don't fly over "controlled" airspace, there will be no fee at all, as I understand it....not that I always get that right at my age :laugh:!!
Cheers!
Doug
Let's say that it takes an average of 50 hours to get a private pilots license, at $120 per hour for the plane and $50 per hour for the instructor that works out to $8,500. Most of my flights were in one hour increments because of the scheduling of the plane. That $100 per use fee would add another $5,000 or an additional 58% to the cost of the license. For a lot of potential pilots this would make it too expensive.
I reread it, Jim, looks like you are right. Here are some exclusions I found interesting:
“To reduce the deficit and more equitably share the cost of air traffic services across the aviation user community, the Administration proposes to create a $100 per flight fee, payable to the Federal Aviation Administration, by aviation operators who fly in controlled airspace,” it reads. “All piston aircraft, military aircraft, public aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would be exempted...."
OK, here's my take. If you're wealthy enough to afford a private airplane in the price range of a turboprop aircraft, the $100/flight fee will be a minor nuisance, but not high enough to diminish the use of private aircraft by the business community.
Anyway, we all know how this works, in our economic system the "costs" of doing business are passed on to the customers. The worst that might happen, IMHO, is a minor increase in inflation as the business's increased costs of flying are passed on to consumers of that business's products.
.....or, the business could just route the flight so that it does not intrude on "controlled" airspace, avoiding the fee entirely? I'm "asking" b/c that seems to be the way I understand it.....might be "mistaken", again, though :idea:
In the end, IMHO, this is going to amount to "...much ado about nothing" in the overall scheme or our society's "issues"...a minor pimple on the faces of the fat-cat businessmen who think they NEED their own airplane (IMHO, it's a convenience, not a necessity, when commercial airflights are so available at lower cost). Maybe we have fat-cat conservatives trying to limit yet another barrier to their obscene quest for increased personal wealth (OK, couldn't resist "stirring the pot" a bit, could I, but there's a bit of truth to my comment....don't the already wealthy recognize how obscene their obsession with personal wealth looks to the average American, those in "...the 99%")?
Cheers!
Doug
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding "controlled airspace" here, or confusing it with "protected airspace" such as that surrounding the White House? Could "controlled airspace" refer to any airspace that is under the "control" of the FAA, or the Air Traffic Controller system in general?
In the end, though, my issue remains that many "businessmen" who fly DO find the "private" aircraft to be a convenience, but I restate my assertion that if that businessman would use commercial air transportation, where the entire $100 fee would not be an issue as it would be spread out among all those on the aircraft, that they would get where they want to go without the added cost of operating their own private aircraft which might incur this fee.
Al, I understand your issue....just a question here, when you were taking your pilot's training, were you preparing to buy a private aircraft for business use or were you just pursuing an enjoyable activity that could be described as "pleasure" or a "hobby"?
Truly, I'm not criticizing here, just trying to understand...there's a lot of difference between "I NEED an airplane" and "Sure would be nice to have an airplane", or even "Sure would be nice to be able to rent an airplane now and then for some pleasure-flying".
Remember when the highly placed executives for the auto industry were criticized for flying private aircraft to Washington to pursue TARP money rather than taking less expensive publicly available flights? IIRC one of GM's executives then drove to D.C. for the next round of deliberations in one of GM's economy models...but I bet that's the only time he drove himself, rather than having a limo come pick him up at the airport. IMHO our business community's leadership has become TOO impressed with their own self-granted importance...just one more example of how the business world has lost contact with the troubles the average American has to face every day.
If this is another issue with "big government", there IS a candidate who might be interesting. Recently I read that Ron Paul takes commercial flights, sits in coach rather than first class, and stays in the "Motel 6". He seems to live in much the same world as those of us in the 99%...not that I would vote for him, either, but he does seem to have avoided that "I'm worth it b/c I'm.....well, b/c I'm me!" attitude that the others display
Cheers!
Doug
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Al, you are aware that this is only for TURBINE aircraft?
I'm fairly sure that the mumber of student pilots who learn to fly in turbine aircraft is very, very small.
Al did you learn to fly on turbine aircraft?
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Hey
dis someone send Gordon Brown over to USA, colour his skin a bit and change his name to "Barack"?
It's the sort of tax that Brown introduced over here a while back and it is now levied on every seat on every aircraft.
By the way you are welcome to Brown - please keep him we don't want him back!
Here is a list of all thet we ended up paying extra
http://www.martinparsons-parliament.org/Economy.htm
Ian
dis someone send Gordon Brown over to USA, colour his skin a bit and change his name to "Barack"?
It's the sort of tax that Brown introduced over here a while back and it is now levied on every seat on every aircraft.
By the way you are welcome to Brown - please keep him we don't want him back!
Here is a list of all thet we ended up paying extra
http://www.martinparsons-parliament.org/Economy.htm
Ian
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Ian, someone told me he has made GBP 14,000,000 since he retired (I heard GBP 1.5M on BBC, but was told the bigger number by a friend). I am glad that Brown is gone. And let's not forget what was said on BBC after Obama won the election by a professor of Poli Sci in the east, "Obama wants to make the Democratic party into the British Labour Party" And that seems to be happening.
If you want to see the future, all you gotta do is come and visit !!
If you want to see the future, all you gotta do is come and visit !!
The users fees have been an issue for many years - way before Obama's stint as POTUS. It is a constant battle that we private pilots face. If you want the real scoop on it, then research Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association which is our lobbying group.
You are right. But I talked to someone at AOPA, their worry was that once the government has established this fee they will branch out into different areas, small aircraft, flight plans, ILS approach, etc.
I'm not concerned with the fact that this is part of Obama's budget, I'm concerned with it happening period!
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
That I can see as a real concern, not only is there a danger of spreading to other types of aircraft, but the $100 may just be the beginning.
I recently read in Aviation Week about an entirely new traffic control system, that will use GPS and computers, with less bored folkes looking at radar screens.
Sounds good but it will cost big bucks.
My thoughts exactly! As much as I like flying, I don't want to cut my time because of monetary constraints. If this were to happen I think it would greatly affect flying clubs which happen to be the least expensive way to fly now.
The AOPA, EAA and other private aircraft associations have been lobbying and fighting User Fees here in the states for years. If you think this is the first time its come up, you have missed a huge debate.
I expect these user fees to quietly grow and spread. Eventually it will effect all private pilots. Just like Europe.
It all starts somewhere...
If the argument for these fees is that people don't really "need" to own an airplane; well, you don't really need a computer either.
I expect these user fees to quietly grow and spread. Eventually it will effect all private pilots. Just like Europe.
It all starts somewhere...
If the argument for these fees is that people don't really "need" to own an airplane; well, you don't really need a computer either.
My response wasn't directed at you, but the person who did make an Obama reference.
When i look at the overall cost of ownership of my two current aircaft (a certified production plane and an experimental homebuilt) users fees would be a very small portion of that. There is no way to cost justify that hobby, much like having a GT40.
I think the high price of gas is a bigger hit financially over all...and that is our capitalistic market at play.
Don't get me wrong, I support the lobbying effort that the EAA, AOPA, etc are doing.
I am re-learning the sport of hanggliding as a backup...
I think the high price of gas is a bigger hit financially over all...and that is our capitalistic market at play.
Don't get me wrong, I support the lobbying effort that the EAA, AOPA, etc are doing.
I am re-learning the sport of hanggliding as a backup...
Okay I own a 30 year old Mooney 231 and think I already pay 'user fees' in the form of fuel taxes used to maintain the government operation of the aviation segments. City taxes are paid because they own the land that the federal government built the airport upon. Part of the operation of any airport is to service the local community and business. Tower staffing and operation is tied to the number of take offs and landing, or is that arrivals and departures. If you continue to raise the cost of flying on the general aviation, those take offs and landing decrease. So goes the tower, approach control, and departure control, because you can't justify those jobs based on a dozen commercial aircraft landing at beautiful Asheville Regional a day.
I'm not whining about cost, but just the reason. It's like the question you always get about the GT40 or any other big HP car....what is your gas mileage? My reply is "I just fill it up when the needle gets to 1/4". I don't want to know all the cost of flying, somethings (marriage?) aren't about cost.
I'm not whining about cost, but just the reason. It's like the question you always get about the GT40 or any other big HP car....what is your gas mileage? My reply is "I just fill it up when the needle gets to 1/4". I don't want to know all the cost of flying, somethings (marriage?) aren't about cost.
Being divorced, marriage is all about the cost! I could have bought a nice plane and a couple GT40s for that!
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