gt40p/chassis #1029
- Thread starter ken visser
- Start date
It could be 1963 those Ferrari's are 250P???
Regards Allan
Regards Allan
I'm confused!!!
I visited the Eifelrennen at the Nurburgring this weekend and took pics of a GT40 with chassis number GT40P-1029!?
Now, at home, looking for this car on the forum and www finding out it was scraped and I couldn't find any further history after. But now it's there at the Nurburgring with German road license plate. Or....... Is it a fraud?
I'll post pics soon.
I visited the Eifelrennen at the Nurburgring this weekend and took pics of a GT40 with chassis number GT40P-1029!?
Now, at home, looking for this car on the forum and www finding out it was scraped and I couldn't find any further history after. But now it's there at the Nurburgring with German road license plate. Or....... Is it a fraud?
I'll post pics soon.
Another amazing GT40 at the Eifelrennen was an Alan Mann Either AMGT40/1 or AMGT40/2 since it was a MK1. I think it was AMGT40/1. It had the 289ci engine, race no 25 in 1966 and the owner has it now for about 30 years and still races the car (which is clearly visable)
Pics will follow!
Pics will follow!
P/1029 is an interesting story. I hadn't heard that there was a car roaming around in Europe with that chassis number; I did recently learn that a car purporting to be P/1029 is undergoing restoration at Bob Ash's shop...I think he actually owns it?
The interesting question is this--do *either* of these cars use the original P/1029 tub as its foundation? Or are these both 'air cars' being built using new tubs, perhaps with bolt-on bits and bobs from the original car to lend some semblance of credibility?
I suppose that if somebody is laying claim to have the original P/1029, they would have to back it up with photographic evidence showing the car in its crashed state, and then slowly progressing to a finished piece. I don't think you can legitimately just pull the sheet off a shiny new car and say, "Ta-Da! Here's P/1029!"
Ronnie Spain doesn't strike me as the kind of fellow who would automatically buy such a story. He would take a fair bit of convincing, especially with the existing story being that the car was completely destroyed in period. If you don't show him pics of that chassis being un-mangled and rebuilt, I doubt he'll credit you with having the actual car in question. And if he doesn't 'bless' the car, then it will never be viewed as a genuine article.
Or so I suspect....
The interesting question is this--do *either* of these cars use the original P/1029 tub as its foundation? Or are these both 'air cars' being built using new tubs, perhaps with bolt-on bits and bobs from the original car to lend some semblance of credibility?
I suppose that if somebody is laying claim to have the original P/1029, they would have to back it up with photographic evidence showing the car in its crashed state, and then slowly progressing to a finished piece. I don't think you can legitimately just pull the sheet off a shiny new car and say, "Ta-Da! Here's P/1029!"
Ronnie Spain doesn't strike me as the kind of fellow who would automatically buy such a story. He would take a fair bit of convincing, especially with the existing story being that the car was completely destroyed in period. If you don't show him pics of that chassis being un-mangled and rebuilt, I doubt he'll credit you with having the actual car in question. And if he doesn't 'bless' the car, then it will never be viewed as a genuine article.
Or so I suspect....
Did I misunderstand but isn't there another 1029 in pieces mentioned here http://www.gt40s.com/forum/343739-post43.html
Do you have details of the third car there #172 ?
Do you have details of the third car there #172 ?
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Hhhmmm.. When I was looking around for a restoration project in late 2009, I contacted Racing Icons to ask if I could purchase the remains of 1029 which they advertise on their site. I received no answer at all. So when I got the letter from Gary in France containing those original catches, I had no reason to doubt him. The truth is, perhaps everyone's got 1029! Let's consider this- if Van Gogh had made jigsaw puzzles, and I'd bought a lot of original pieces from all over the world, but had to replace some missing pieces with reproduction ones, would I end up with an original (restored) Van Gogh jigsaw puzzle or not??? Andrew
JimmyMac
Lifetime Supporter
Having also done this here's my view -
If Van Gogh had assembled the pieces himself then it should be attributed to him as an original masterpiece.
Otherwise it's only a jigsaw puzzle.
Jimmy,
I'd have to say that I respectfully disagree. These cars ARE jigsaw puzzles, and pieces were/are routinely interchanged...motors, bodywork, suspensions, trannys etc.
I know I'm not making things any simpler, but exactly what or how much constitutes an original is a huge gray area............. If I have the tub, but nothing else, do I have 1029? If I had to replace the tub, but have everything else, do I have 1029? If I have 49% of the tub, but everything else....you get the idea. Personally, I've always felt that the chassis was the essence of the car, but even these were reassigned in the day, so who's to say.
I know that a lot of people have made quite a good living in the "industry" of reconstituting cars (Sbarro etc), and many owners have a vested interest in a more liberal interpretation of what constitutes original....
Theoretically, it could get to the point where cars will be "built" around ever smaller fractions of original parts....to the point where parts will be hoarded so that multiple "original" cars can be built out of a single pile of bits and pieces..... Kinda reminds me of the "least publishable unit" theory of accademic papers....researchers present as little of their data/conclusions as possible in each individual paper, in order to extract the most possible number of papers out of any given project.
I have no solution, just to say "buyer beware".
I'd have to say that I respectfully disagree. These cars ARE jigsaw puzzles, and pieces were/are routinely interchanged...motors, bodywork, suspensions, trannys etc.
I know I'm not making things any simpler, but exactly what or how much constitutes an original is a huge gray area............. If I have the tub, but nothing else, do I have 1029? If I had to replace the tub, but have everything else, do I have 1029? If I have 49% of the tub, but everything else....you get the idea. Personally, I've always felt that the chassis was the essence of the car, but even these were reassigned in the day, so who's to say.
I know that a lot of people have made quite a good living in the "industry" of reconstituting cars (Sbarro etc), and many owners have a vested interest in a more liberal interpretation of what constitutes original....
Theoretically, it could get to the point where cars will be "built" around ever smaller fractions of original parts....to the point where parts will be hoarded so that multiple "original" cars can be built out of a single pile of bits and pieces..... Kinda reminds me of the "least publishable unit" theory of accademic papers....researchers present as little of their data/conclusions as possible in each individual paper, in order to extract the most possible number of papers out of any given project.
I have no solution, just to say "buyer beware".
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Ron, because of exactly this issue, cars are seldom described as originals any more unless it is absolutely verifiable through continuous ownership and photo and service records that the car possesses all it's proper bits for a given period of its life. We all know that race cars are frequently subjected to accidents, repairs, improvements, etc, and that these events occur in period and that they are the bane of the existence of race car historians worldwide. But if you had, for example, the tub of 10XX and added to it all the appropriate period bits to make a complete GT40- you would still not have GT40-P10XX. You would have A GT40 which had been built around an original tub with non-original parts. There is no quick way to describe that- and perhaps that is a good thing. Cars ought to be fairly described and promoted and sold as such.
Kudos to Jay for pointing out that the chassis plate is in the wrong place. The real 1029 lives with Robert Ash if I am not mistaken, and is under restoration.
Kudos to Jay for pointing out that the chassis plate is in the wrong place. The real 1029 lives with Robert Ash if I am not mistaken, and is under restoration.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
I think "Sports Car Market" magazine refers to a car like that as a "bitsa" which I assume means "bits of this car, bits of that car" or perhaps in your example, "bits of no car".
Actually, I think a "bitsa" is a one-off homebuilt car, which is made using bits of this and that. The English refer to such a car as a 'special', although often a special will have a core underpinning it, i.e. an Austin 7 whose body is removed and replaced with an open-wheel racing body. Underneath it's an Austin 7 chassis, engine, suspension, brakes etc.
A bitsa is more normally a conglomeration of parts from various cars, i.e. start with a chassis from Car X, front axle from Car Y, rear end from Car Z, engine from this, gearbox from that, doorhandles from something else, body formed out of an old water heater, etc. etc. :laugh:
The thing is, when you're done building a bitsa, you don't then hang a GT40 chassis tag on it and claim that it's a genuine 40-year-old race car. :thumbsdown:
A bitsa is more normally a conglomeration of parts from various cars, i.e. start with a chassis from Car X, front axle from Car Y, rear end from Car Z, engine from this, gearbox from that, doorhandles from something else, body formed out of an old water heater, etc. etc. :laugh:
The thing is, when you're done building a bitsa, you don't then hang a GT40 chassis tag on it and claim that it's a genuine 40-year-old race car. :thumbsdown:
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Here are some usages from SCMs site; they almost never discuss "specials" so I strongly doubt that matches their definition of the word:
1933 Bugatti Type 51 Grand Prix
(Profiles/Race)
... moderately original ones extant—and the rest are seriously compromised. A bitsa with tons of race provenance This Raglan car is in all honesty a complete “Bitsa” (bitsa this car, bitsa that one) with ...
1972-73 Porsche 917 Interserie Spyder
(Profiles/German)
... $3 million for a ‘bitsa’ to probably $7 million or more for an ultimate one—if you could find anyone who would sell. In apparent tribute to McQueen and the iconography of the movie, the Gulf/Wyer cars ... "
1928 Bugatti Type 35C Grand Prix
(Profiles/Etceterini)
... factory before the war. A bitsa, but a darn good one For sure this car is no "all matching" Type 35C and does not have an original Molsheim GP body. But certainly all the mechanical parts are Bugatti ...
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