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Guest
Guest
WOW! What a hot topic. The only thing I have to add is that Bob said the new monocoque car would have a polished engine compartment and that the crossover exhaust would be polished stainless steel.
GTD chassis - spec changes
- Thread starter Julian West
- Start date
My thought are:- you do not buy a jig saw puzzle just for the finished picture, but for the fun of putting it together, just like a 40. Frank
G
Guest
Guest
Ron,
Youre right, the audi trans can be had cheap at wrecking yards, however its a used unit and hard to know its true condition. Transaxles are costly to overhaul and the CAV car has a reconditionded audi box in it.
To date no one has mentioned that the new CAV monocoque body may be Kelvar, if this is true,its not just another GT40. This will make it a lot different than the space frame car and is out on its own.
Its good to have many different opinions and ideas, and I would hope that people are proud of what they build or buy. All these cars will get you down the road, even the VW with the GT40 body on it.
Youre right, the audi trans can be had cheap at wrecking yards, however its a used unit and hard to know its true condition. Transaxles are costly to overhaul and the CAV car has a reconditionded audi box in it.
To date no one has mentioned that the new CAV monocoque body may be Kelvar, if this is true,its not just another GT40. This will make it a lot different than the space frame car and is out on its own.
Its good to have many different opinions and ideas, and I would hope that people are proud of what they build or buy. All these cars will get you down the road, even the VW with the GT40 body on it.
G
Guest
Guest
I think you need to be very good at "Jigsaws" to build up a monocoque 40. Very few people can support you on chassis issues. I looked at one some time ago but rejected the idea as I did not think I could deal with unforseen problems. I also wanted a project that perhaps was more tried and tested based on the concept of don't be the guinea pig! Remember as you build a car if there is a manual it won't tell you everything and its like doing Franks suggestion of a jigsaw but without a picture to go by.
Malcolm
Malcolm
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F Catt,
Never thought a jig-saw puzzle made a good picture. The plywood jig-saw puzzle was a work of art, however if I want a picture I will get a real picture. Just my opinion.
Never thought a jig-saw puzzle made a good picture. The plywood jig-saw puzzle was a work of art, however if I want a picture I will get a real picture. Just my opinion.
G
Guest
Guest
Ian K
You asked how SP compares to FFR.
The SP is a factory produced car and they are just about all the same. They are well finished and will take any engine you want to put in them. My SP is the road car no hood scoop and under car exhaust. You can make your own changes, suspension, engine wheels,tranmission etc. My car has the big block FE engine, tremec and 3.08 ring and pinion. This engine has loads of torque and first gear is a 3.27. The car came with a 3.73 rear end, but was too short in first gear to suit me. SP has a good dealer set up accross the USA. (CAV is going the same way)
FFR is a car that is pretty much based on the mustang and from what I have heard is limited to certain engines. (ford small blocks). I think they sell mostly kits and the end product will vary a lot as to finish and quality. They can be very good cars,it just depends on the builder, as I have said they are mostly kits. I would not knock any ones product, like they say its better to be an educated consumer. Know what you are buying and what it takes in labour and money. When I looked into the AC cobra, it would have cost me a lot more money to build a kit, compared to the SP factory car. I do have time to build engines and transmissions for myself, but thats it
You asked how SP compares to FFR.
The SP is a factory produced car and they are just about all the same. They are well finished and will take any engine you want to put in them. My SP is the road car no hood scoop and under car exhaust. You can make your own changes, suspension, engine wheels,tranmission etc. My car has the big block FE engine, tremec and 3.08 ring and pinion. This engine has loads of torque and first gear is a 3.27. The car came with a 3.73 rear end, but was too short in first gear to suit me. SP has a good dealer set up accross the USA. (CAV is going the same way)
FFR is a car that is pretty much based on the mustang and from what I have heard is limited to certain engines. (ford small blocks). I think they sell mostly kits and the end product will vary a lot as to finish and quality. They can be very good cars,it just depends on the builder, as I have said they are mostly kits. I would not knock any ones product, like they say its better to be an educated consumer. Know what you are buying and what it takes in labour and money. When I looked into the AC cobra, it would have cost me a lot more money to build a kit, compared to the SP factory car. I do have time to build engines and transmissions for myself, but thats it
Malcolm K, Perhaps I expressed wrongly. I meant that for a lot of us, making something ourselves can be as gratifying as owning the finished article, and even if we could afford to buy an original,I know a lot of people who would still prefer to build their own.
Neal
Lifetime Supporter
Interesting topic. To Ian's question, I and a few others on this forum have gone through the Factory Five experience. The SPF car is well finished. The factory five car finish is really up to the builder. Both are competent performers if properly build. I like the project aspect of this hobby as much as I like scaring the sh*t out of myself on the track in the car! This is one reasons I chose to go with the GT40 Replication car in NZ. Yes, there is potential to save a few $$$ if you build youself but what it comes to is time is money. How much is your time worth? In my case, the personal satisfaction and zen-relaxation I get from the build makes my time priceless.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Couldn't agree more. It is amazing what people will spend on therapy of various types, to feel better, when what would often do just as well is several hours spent turning wrenches, sanding, fiddling, etc. Plus you have something to show for it at the end.
After nine years spent on restoring a vintage sportfishing boat, I have had nine years of boating fun on the water, acquired skills I didn't have before, and sources for parts, made lots of new friends, and I have a beautiful restored yacht that is worth all I put into it. Which is also a second home I can move around. Folks who don't "get" these kinds of interests look at all this as money thrown away. I look at it as lots of fun and a lot more enjoyment from life.
After nine years spent on restoring a vintage sportfishing boat, I have had nine years of boating fun on the water, acquired skills I didn't have before, and sources for parts, made lots of new friends, and I have a beautiful restored yacht that is worth all I put into it. Which is also a second home I can move around. Folks who don't "get" these kinds of interests look at all this as money thrown away. I look at it as lots of fun and a lot more enjoyment from life.
Well, you all confirmed pretty much what I
really knew. I guess what I was really
getting at was the notion that a factory
built car would have a better resale value
in general. Obviously, an owner built car
could be tweaked over the years in the
search for perfection.
I would say however, a home built ERA cobra
probably has a better resale than an SP, as
long as the builder didn't mangle it.
It all comes down to 2 things: quality of
work and quality of components. Not that
I'm equating RF to ERA and CAV to FF. The
CAV is a solid product, probably equal to the
RF in quality.
Ian
really knew. I guess what I was really
getting at was the notion that a factory
built car would have a better resale value
in general. Obviously, an owner built car
could be tweaked over the years in the
search for perfection.
I would say however, a home built ERA cobra
probably has a better resale than an SP, as
long as the builder didn't mangle it.
It all comes down to 2 things: quality of
work and quality of components. Not that
I'm equating RF to ERA and CAV to FF. The
CAV is a solid product, probably equal to the
RF in quality.
Ian
G
Guest
Guest
This is really not related to the subject thread, but I have to ask....
How is it that there are so many companies
in Australia/NZ making/selling GT40 replicas
(RF/DRB/Phil Ware/etc)and so FEW based in the US? I feel discriminated against!
MikeD
How is it that there are so many companies
in Australia/NZ making/selling GT40 replicas
(RF/DRB/Phil Ware/etc)and so FEW based in the US? I feel discriminated against!
MikeD
G
Guest
Guest
Mike D,
I do believe that in the States you have a few makers of the hot rod car, that goes back to the fifthies. In England they always had the small sports car. So the back ground is some what different between the two countries.
It reminds me of the difference between rugby and american football, or cricket and baseball. Horse racing is also different.
However in the states you do have people that are into rugby and cricket in a small way. I have had horses myself and english riding would come a distant second to the western style. To my knowledge they dont make english saddles in the states, there all imported.
Now when it comes to cars it may follow in a way, something like the above.
I do believe that in the States you have a few makers of the hot rod car, that goes back to the fifthies. In England they always had the small sports car. So the back ground is some what different between the two countries.
It reminds me of the difference between rugby and american football, or cricket and baseball. Horse racing is also different.
However in the states you do have people that are into rugby and cricket in a small way. I have had horses myself and english riding would come a distant second to the western style. To my knowledge they dont make english saddles in the states, there all imported.
Now when it comes to cars it may follow in a way, something like the above.
G
Guest
Guest
Malcolm
I understand that most of the GT40s success
was in European racing, but that still
doesn't explain why so few manufacturers
sprung up in the USA.
By comparison look how many Lambo replicators
there are in the US. And on a per capita basis, there is a HUGE discrepancy between
the US and Australia/NZ.
Is it because there was (is)such a big demand
for Cobras that manufacturers just took the
safe route? Is there more appreciation for the GT40 as a whole in the UK and down under?
MikeD
I understand that most of the GT40s success
was in European racing, but that still
doesn't explain why so few manufacturers
sprung up in the USA.
By comparison look how many Lambo replicators
there are in the US. And on a per capita basis, there is a HUGE discrepancy between
the US and Australia/NZ.
Is it because there was (is)such a big demand
for Cobras that manufacturers just took the
safe route? Is there more appreciation for the GT40 as a whole in the UK and down under?
MikeD
G
Guest
Guest
Mike,
A lambo is really a fiero, and a cobra has a simple ladder frame. These are cars that would be easier to produce, for people that dont have the sports car back ground.In England they had about one hundred different car makers. In the States they come to making cars from a different angle. Im not talking about mass produced cars. The american hot rod and the super 7 would be a good example. Also in the states we have different roads, that dont require the handling that English roads require.
Robert Logan could answer this topic, as he was born in Ireland and knows a lot about roads with bends. I also know the same roads and they are a real challenge, to man and machine. Thats how Robert learned how to make a good car.
A lambo is really a fiero, and a cobra has a simple ladder frame. These are cars that would be easier to produce, for people that dont have the sports car back ground.In England they had about one hundred different car makers. In the States they come to making cars from a different angle. Im not talking about mass produced cars. The american hot rod and the super 7 would be a good example. Also in the states we have different roads, that dont require the handling that English roads require.
Robert Logan could answer this topic, as he was born in Ireland and knows a lot about roads with bends. I also know the same roads and they are a real challenge, to man and machine. Thats how Robert learned how to make a good car.
Robert Logan
Defunct Manufactuer - Old RF Company
Malcolm,
Thank you for flushing me out again !!!
To answer the question about the GT40 / Cobra and the Australian / UK / USA connections, I think that a lot of what has already been said is true.
The major thing that suprised me when I first looked into kit cars in the US was the sheer number of Cobra manufacturers, 66 was what Mike Blake told me. Now I am sure that the number is being added to and unfortunately subtracted from on a daily basis but the total will vary little. The cobras are really quite simple to build in comparison to a GT40 but the fall over rate for manufacturers is alarming !!!!
The GT40 is a very complex kit and therefore requires a great deal of persistence and persperation to complete and I am talking from the manufacturer prospective as well as the customer. This has been done to great effect by ERA and they have learned their trade well on Cobras and in completing other manufacturers GT40 kits and then manufacturing their own( Bob please correct me if I am wrong ). ERA produce one of the best kits in the market place and should be highly commended for this. My only critism of ERA is that they have stood still and in this or any business that means they are effectively going backwards. This does not distract from the quality of their product but if the idea was to produce an exact copy than this continual development and investment should have taken place. This can be said of all kit car companies and I hope the above is not read as an ERA bash as I have a great deal of respect for both the company and their products. We would be so lucky if all kit car manufacturers were as ERA.
As a manufacturer there is a requirement to listen to the customer. After all if we have no customers we have NOTHING. This forum was the idea of one of my customers, Ron Earp, and I was asked about the content from the very start. If the other manufactures had responded to the ideas of their customers than this forum would have existed years ago.
I believe that I have one major advantage over my rivals in that 'I was that angry young man' many years ago when I was a customer. I built my first GT40 from another company. I had little help from the owner of the company and when I had some major mechanical problems that were because of poor quality manufactured components the answer was that I was the first person with that problem, when I knew for a fact that other builders of the same cars were having the same problems. I vowed that I would be transparent , open to all my customers and be man enough to put my hand up and be responsible / accountable for my cars. This is the major reason that I fully encouraged this forum as not only does it keep me honest but hopefully all the others.
As regards to the number of manufacturers in Australia, there were none in 1994 when I returned to England to build my first car. I returned to England because of the GT40 club and the help that I thought I would get in the build. The help I actually got was 10 fold, especially from Ken Saunders, and I would encourage all builders to talk to fellow builders and meet with them as often as possible. Another reason to encourage the formation of this forum.
Geting back to the reason for the popularity of the GT40 over the Cobra in the UK can basically be simplified into three reasons as I see it :
1. it nearly always rains in the UK and a car without a roof is as usefull as a cigar lighter on a motorcycle.
2. the GT40 and other such cars are regularily raced in the UK in historic meetings and with so many circuits so close to the main population areas than these cars are seen.
3. the Brits are keen as mustard about sports car racing and very good at it as well and the annual pilgrimage to Le Mans needs to be seen to be believed. Better still it needs to be experienced.
These three reasons led to the interest in GT40's in the UK and because of the ex-pat thing in Aus and NZ also.
I think it is also important to realise that there has rarely been that much competition in the UK with initially Ken Vincent Atwell and his KVA , then Ray Christopher and GTD and Tornado. There have been a few other manufacturers such as Hi-Tech and Dax but they have come and gone Quickly.I supose if you now read CAV as GTD and Safire as KVA and GT40 NZ as also KVA little has changed except they are all trying to make it in the US market place. My worries are that little has also changed with the product and therefore little has been learned or even more worrying few mistakes have been accepted and rectified.
As far as Roaring Forties is concened I would like to think that we respond to the customers needs. We produced a left hand drive car with central gear change for a US customer, we have produced a Mk II rear for another customer and removable roof sections for yet another customer. We have produced pin drive Halibrands and pin drive BRM's and I am currently working on a FULL monocoque for myself(another customer but still an angry young man). Everything changes but little actually changes.
Best wishes to all
Robert
Thank you for flushing me out again !!!
To answer the question about the GT40 / Cobra and the Australian / UK / USA connections, I think that a lot of what has already been said is true.
The major thing that suprised me when I first looked into kit cars in the US was the sheer number of Cobra manufacturers, 66 was what Mike Blake told me. Now I am sure that the number is being added to and unfortunately subtracted from on a daily basis but the total will vary little. The cobras are really quite simple to build in comparison to a GT40 but the fall over rate for manufacturers is alarming !!!!
The GT40 is a very complex kit and therefore requires a great deal of persistence and persperation to complete and I am talking from the manufacturer prospective as well as the customer. This has been done to great effect by ERA and they have learned their trade well on Cobras and in completing other manufacturers GT40 kits and then manufacturing their own( Bob please correct me if I am wrong ). ERA produce one of the best kits in the market place and should be highly commended for this. My only critism of ERA is that they have stood still and in this or any business that means they are effectively going backwards. This does not distract from the quality of their product but if the idea was to produce an exact copy than this continual development and investment should have taken place. This can be said of all kit car companies and I hope the above is not read as an ERA bash as I have a great deal of respect for both the company and their products. We would be so lucky if all kit car manufacturers were as ERA.
As a manufacturer there is a requirement to listen to the customer. After all if we have no customers we have NOTHING. This forum was the idea of one of my customers, Ron Earp, and I was asked about the content from the very start. If the other manufactures had responded to the ideas of their customers than this forum would have existed years ago.
I believe that I have one major advantage over my rivals in that 'I was that angry young man' many years ago when I was a customer. I built my first GT40 from another company. I had little help from the owner of the company and when I had some major mechanical problems that were because of poor quality manufactured components the answer was that I was the first person with that problem, when I knew for a fact that other builders of the same cars were having the same problems. I vowed that I would be transparent , open to all my customers and be man enough to put my hand up and be responsible / accountable for my cars. This is the major reason that I fully encouraged this forum as not only does it keep me honest but hopefully all the others.
As regards to the number of manufacturers in Australia, there were none in 1994 when I returned to England to build my first car. I returned to England because of the GT40 club and the help that I thought I would get in the build. The help I actually got was 10 fold, especially from Ken Saunders, and I would encourage all builders to talk to fellow builders and meet with them as often as possible. Another reason to encourage the formation of this forum.
Geting back to the reason for the popularity of the GT40 over the Cobra in the UK can basically be simplified into three reasons as I see it :
1. it nearly always rains in the UK and a car without a roof is as usefull as a cigar lighter on a motorcycle.
2. the GT40 and other such cars are regularily raced in the UK in historic meetings and with so many circuits so close to the main population areas than these cars are seen.
3. the Brits are keen as mustard about sports car racing and very good at it as well and the annual pilgrimage to Le Mans needs to be seen to be believed. Better still it needs to be experienced.
These three reasons led to the interest in GT40's in the UK and because of the ex-pat thing in Aus and NZ also.
I think it is also important to realise that there has rarely been that much competition in the UK with initially Ken Vincent Atwell and his KVA , then Ray Christopher and GTD and Tornado. There have been a few other manufacturers such as Hi-Tech and Dax but they have come and gone Quickly.I supose if you now read CAV as GTD and Safire as KVA and GT40 NZ as also KVA little has changed except they are all trying to make it in the US market place. My worries are that little has also changed with the product and therefore little has been learned or even more worrying few mistakes have been accepted and rectified.
As far as Roaring Forties is concened I would like to think that we respond to the customers needs. We produced a left hand drive car with central gear change for a US customer, we have produced a Mk II rear for another customer and removable roof sections for yet another customer. We have produced pin drive Halibrands and pin drive BRM's and I am currently working on a FULL monocoque for myself(another customer but still an angry young man). Everything changes but little actually changes.
Best wishes to all
Robert
G
Guest
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>As far as spaceframe vs. monocoque, the RF spaceframe seems superior in strength
compared to ERA/original spec monocoques<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you are basing this statement on the chassis stiffness figures given on the RF web page, remember there is one very important note just below the figure:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>In this form the chassis would have an integrated roll-over bar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless you get the car with this option, it isn't going to be as stiff. It would be best to get the numbers from RF for the rigidity tests done without the roll cage, to do an apples to apples comparison.
compared to ERA/original spec monocoques<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you are basing this statement on the chassis stiffness figures given on the RF web page, remember there is one very important note just below the figure:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>In this form the chassis would have an integrated roll-over bar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless you get the car with this option, it isn't going to be as stiff. It would be best to get the numbers from RF for the rigidity tests done without the roll cage, to do an apples to apples comparison.
Robert Logan
Defunct Manufactuer - Old RF Company
Ian,
The Roaring Forties does have an integrated roolbar in its design. It is the rear loop and is the same / similar to the other cars being produced. The reason that I am not allowed to claim it as a race cage ("C" type) is that by FIA this rollbar has to be made of one continuous piece of specific material and like other manufactures I have cut and welded our rear loop. We do offer full and half cages as an option and all chassis are fitted for these cages ie. plates have been welded to the chassis to bolt in the cages.
As another point we have conducted full torsional and beam testing on our chassis and the torsional tests on a chassis, no aluminium pannels fitted, was over 12000 Nm./deg. I would like to see figures for other cars and I hope to redo the tests but this time with a completed car !!!!
Best wishes, Robert
The Roaring Forties does have an integrated roolbar in its design. It is the rear loop and is the same / similar to the other cars being produced. The reason that I am not allowed to claim it as a race cage ("C" type) is that by FIA this rollbar has to be made of one continuous piece of specific material and like other manufactures I have cut and welded our rear loop. We do offer full and half cages as an option and all chassis are fitted for these cages ie. plates have been welded to the chassis to bolt in the cages.
As another point we have conducted full torsional and beam testing on our chassis and the torsional tests on a chassis, no aluminium pannels fitted, was over 12000 Nm./deg. I would like to see figures for other cars and I hope to redo the tests but this time with a completed car !!!!
Best wishes, Robert
G
Guest
Guest
The cav monocoque has built in roll protection (roll bar), plus side impact protection. This is what I was told.
If you want true testing, it would be best to leave it up to an independent tester. This way you could be sure the same method was used for all cars.
If you want true testing, it would be best to leave it up to an independent tester. This way you could be sure the same method was used for all cars.
