I'm thinking about building a GT40. I've looked at the RF kit.I want a car to autocross,and use for track days. So I've optioned the kit out with full roll bar, AP brakes, ac, limited slip diff. How hard is it to build in my garage? Is there a manuel, pictures to go by? Are the holes predrilled? I have a screw driver and a pair of pliers.
How Hard is it?
- Thread starter LtMash1A
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David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
First of all go and buy a tool chest for all the tools you will no doubt acquire, then make sure you have an understanding partner
for all the time you will inevitably be locked in your garage and finally put a beer cooler in your garage as well for all your friends who will be giving you 'advice'.
Dave M.
for all the time you will inevitably be locked in your garage and finally put a beer cooler in your garage as well for all your friends who will be giving you 'advice'.
Dave M.
I can't speak for other makes since my experience in building "kit cars" is solely with the RF40.
You need to have some basic manual skills and a commitment to complete the job. If you're OK with doing things such as replacing a gearbox or fixing a brake problem etc, then you should be OK with this too. Factor in some money for some new tools and then away you go.
I've built my car with little more than the average "home-hack's" toolset - the most sophistcated tool being a power drill and jig-saw. Better tools always make the job easier, but aren't essential. Some important holes are pre-drilled but most aren't. A hint... get yourself a good file set for those final touches.
The manual is excelent, with lots of pictures, and there's always the manufacturer who is enthusiastic when it comes to help.
You need to have some basic manual skills and a commitment to complete the job. If you're OK with doing things such as replacing a gearbox or fixing a brake problem etc, then you should be OK with this too. Factor in some money for some new tools and then away you go.
I've built my car with little more than the average "home-hack's" toolset - the most sophistcated tool being a power drill and jig-saw. Better tools always make the job easier, but aren't essential. Some important holes are pre-drilled but most aren't. A hint... get yourself a good file set for those final touches.
The manual is excelent, with lots of pictures, and there's always the manufacturer who is enthusiastic when it comes to help.
My son and I are in the middle of building a RF. One essintial is a good international long distance service - a quick phone call to Robert and/or his staff can answer any question. They also can walk you through the corretions to fix problems. The second is good quality tools for the proper job. We had problems with bending brake/clutch tubing, and were ready to just buy braided SS lines. But after getting some good (and proper) tool we were able to run the lines.
Overall the construction process has been straight forward.
Overall the construction process has been straight forward.
GT40's can be built by a first timer but is this really what you want to do? How much are you going to have into ($$$) this vehicle when you are done? It is going to take you how many years to finish your project? You want to take this car on track? If you want a road race car why not buy a either an early Mustang or a fox body (1979-1993) Mustang all set up to go as a road race car? It would be a lot cheaper. You should be able to find a completed GT40 for $45,000 (US) easily if you do some looking. If you buy a completed car (Mustang or GT40) you can enjoy it NOW and not later. Build your own new GT40 might run you $50,000 - $65,000 or higher assuming you ever finish it. How big is your garage? If your wife is not parking in it now then she will not miss her garage space. Otherwise she will not see her garage space for a few years. The things you have to ask yourself is: What support will my family be? What are my mechanical skills to start and finish this project? What car geek/gear head friends or family do I have locally to support me? What tools will I be needing? What is my time worth and what items can I do myself and what will I need to farm out? You need to access things correctly or we just might see your ad here in three years on you selling an unfinished GT40 project. We all here at GT40.com will be here to give you moral support and advice but due to logistics we won't be able to come to your house and give you a hand. We really want you to succeed. But you or anyone else thinking of doing this need to give something like this a lot of serious thought. You might want put your plan, costs and time line down on paper and review if this is really what you want to commit yourself to?
Jim Seisser
Jim Seisser
IMHO, ERA might be more to your liking as far
as a more straightforward bolt it together.
Not that there isn't a little more involved,
but I think the RF might require a little
more work. But, from what others have said,
it's still doable.
I hear the RF body is very well done, so
that shouldn't be too bad. ERA comes with
the body mounted and doors prehung IIRC, but
you still need to take it all apart to
complete. Hanging the doors is tough.
But, if you want an ERA, the wait is huge.
Ian
as a more straightforward bolt it together.
Not that there isn't a little more involved,
but I think the RF might require a little
more work. But, from what others have said,
it's still doable.
I hear the RF body is very well done, so
that shouldn't be too bad. ERA comes with
the body mounted and doors prehung IIRC, but
you still need to take it all apart to
complete. Hanging the doors is tough.
But, if you want an ERA, the wait is huge.
Ian
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Actually YOU will do fine with just a screwdriver and a pair of pliers. However, the car will look awful and not run. If you want to have a car that looks good AND runs, you will probably need just a few more tools...
Our forum founder is building an RF 40 in NC, perhaps he might be willing to let you get a look at it...
If you have never built a car before, the bad news is that this is a rather large project (but not impossible by any means) for a first-timer. The good news is that the factory support is universally acclaimed to be first-rate, and that if you take your time and learn as you go, you'll have a great car when you're done.
Oh, and you'll have a good tool collection for the next project as well.
Our forum founder is building an RF 40 in NC, perhaps he might be willing to let you get a look at it...
If you have never built a car before, the bad news is that this is a rather large project (but not impossible by any means) for a first-timer. The good news is that the factory support is universally acclaimed to be first-rate, and that if you take your time and learn as you go, you'll have a great car when you're done.
Oh, and you'll have a good tool collection for the next project as well.
I think I'm starting to get the picture. It looks like a couple of years project. I have the garage to myself and a Z06. So, If it took a couple of years that would be fine. I live in NASCAR country and have patients that build race cars, so help is not far away. I E-Mailed RF to see if I could buy a manuel for construction. I thought I could read it, then I could pretty well decide if it were a project that I could take on. I'm looking for bolt together and don't want to have to do any engineering. How is the body work part of it? If fit and finish is not too much of a problem, then I would feel comfortable sealing, priming, blocking and sanding. I would take it to my body shop for final paint. If its a pain it the ass to make the body parts fit up right and you would have to do a lot of filling and blocking, I would just as soon get a roller.
Thanks, I really appreciate any imput./Dave
Thanks, I really appreciate any imput./Dave
Robert Logan
Defunct Manufactuer - Old RF Company
LtMarsh,
Thank you for youe interest in our kits. I have developed the car to require little in the way of tools and as regards to drilling I must point out that aparts from the holes required for "p clips" and securing the aluminium / S.Steel panels etc. there is LITTLE in the way of drilling especially as regards to the chassis.
The manual is very detailed as it should be and I do not sell them because of the high level of intelectual content (I have already had some of my parts copied). I will however arange for you to look at a manual through our agent in the US, Gordon Levy. If you live in NC than Ron Earp also lives there.
I thank our customers above for the very positive remarks as regards the manual and the technical support that my staff give. This level of support will soon be available through Gordon as he is currently building his own car with our guidelines.
If I can be of any further assistance than please e-mail me at [email protected]
Best wishes,
Robert
Thank you for youe interest in our kits. I have developed the car to require little in the way of tools and as regards to drilling I must point out that aparts from the holes required for "p clips" and securing the aluminium / S.Steel panels etc. there is LITTLE in the way of drilling especially as regards to the chassis.
The manual is very detailed as it should be and I do not sell them because of the high level of intelectual content (I have already had some of my parts copied). I will however arange for you to look at a manual through our agent in the US, Gordon Levy. If you live in NC than Ron Earp also lives there.
I thank our customers above for the very positive remarks as regards the manual and the technical support that my staff give. This level of support will soon be available through Gordon as he is currently building his own car with our guidelines.
If I can be of any further assistance than please e-mail me at [email protected]
Best wishes,
Robert
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roaring Forties:
"...The manual is very detailed as it should be and I do not sell them because of the high level of intelectual content (I have already had some of my parts copied)..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I'm confused. I thought that "intellectual property" was defined as any product of the human intellect that is unique, novel, not immediately apparent, and usually related to an idea, invention, expression or literary creation, a unique name, a business method, an industrial process, a chemical formula, a computer program process, or a presentation that has some value in the marketplace.
Maybe an assembly manual is a literary creation, and it would fall under that part of the 'intellectual property,' but if it's a work on paper, then it's absolutely copyrightable and subject to protection under Title 17 of the U.S. code.
I'm not saying this to start an argument of any kind, but I fail to see how keeping the one really important part of making a decision about buying a GT40 - "Can I build it?" a secret is ever a good idea for any manufacturer. If you're that concerned about your manual, then you should copyright it. Not only will that protect your creative work, but it will allow you to sell your manual to people who are interested in purchasing a GT40, but don't know if they have the skill set to do so. Extra income never hurt anyone.
How different is your GT40 assembly from, say, a GTD or a Tornado?
I'm sorry, I just think that if someone is going to make a decision to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that could take up all of their garage and most of their free time, they should know what they're getting into. No amount of posting on a forum is every going to be a substitute for actual knowledge. You cannot make an informed decision without having all of the information.
Your pal,
Meat.
"...The manual is very detailed as it should be and I do not sell them because of the high level of intelectual content (I have already had some of my parts copied)..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I'm confused. I thought that "intellectual property" was defined as any product of the human intellect that is unique, novel, not immediately apparent, and usually related to an idea, invention, expression or literary creation, a unique name, a business method, an industrial process, a chemical formula, a computer program process, or a presentation that has some value in the marketplace.
Maybe an assembly manual is a literary creation, and it would fall under that part of the 'intellectual property,' but if it's a work on paper, then it's absolutely copyrightable and subject to protection under Title 17 of the U.S. code.
I'm not saying this to start an argument of any kind, but I fail to see how keeping the one really important part of making a decision about buying a GT40 - "Can I build it?" a secret is ever a good idea for any manufacturer. If you're that concerned about your manual, then you should copyright it. Not only will that protect your creative work, but it will allow you to sell your manual to people who are interested in purchasing a GT40, but don't know if they have the skill set to do so. Extra income never hurt anyone.
How different is your GT40 assembly from, say, a GTD or a Tornado?
I'm sorry, I just think that if someone is going to make a decision to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that could take up all of their garage and most of their free time, they should know what they're getting into. No amount of posting on a forum is every going to be a substitute for actual knowledge. You cannot make an informed decision without having all of the information.
Your pal,
Meat.
Robert Logan
Defunct Manufactuer - Old RF Company
I have spent a large ammount of monies producing a very detailed workshop manual to help the RF builders. There is a complete set of aluminium panel drawings with a shaddow of our chassis under these drawings. This would make it quiet easy for someone to copy my chassis especially with the computer software that is available today. Very detailed photographs and drawings show all other build areas and again this I have chosen to keep to my customers ONLY.
I have had numerous requests for chassis drawings for people and if our manual was in the general domain I am sure it would be being copied.
I will and have helped many people to view the manual to check if it is as I say it is and as you so correctly said if they are about to spend many thousands of their hard earned cash than the inconvenience is in my opinion worth it.
As a final point, the less others can copy my work and assuming it is at least good, the more desireable it remains and therefore the more valuable the RF remains.
I am not in the full bloded race game but I would not expect them to send full drawings to their competitors either directly or otherwise.
Please do not think this arrogant but I have repeated this many times before and have NO intention of releasing our manual to the general public. I fully understand that it would help would be purchasers to buy but I believe it would cause more harm to my company than good. I will not be drawn into further dialogue regarding this matter.
For those wishing to view our manual please contact either Gordon or myself.
Best wishes,
Robert
I have had numerous requests for chassis drawings for people and if our manual was in the general domain I am sure it would be being copied.
I will and have helped many people to view the manual to check if it is as I say it is and as you so correctly said if they are about to spend many thousands of their hard earned cash than the inconvenience is in my opinion worth it.
As a final point, the less others can copy my work and assuming it is at least good, the more desireable it remains and therefore the more valuable the RF remains.
I am not in the full bloded race game but I would not expect them to send full drawings to their competitors either directly or otherwise.
Please do not think this arrogant but I have repeated this many times before and have NO intention of releasing our manual to the general public. I fully understand that it would help would be purchasers to buy but I believe it would cause more harm to my company than good. I will not be drawn into further dialogue regarding this matter.
For those wishing to view our manual please contact either Gordon or myself.
Best wishes,
Robert
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> You should be able to find a completed GT40 for $45,000 (US) easily <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh point me to one! Maybe a KVA but I haven't seen a running GT40 replica of any sort in the US for less than $75k. They appear all the time in Europe for less but aren't really importable.
Uh point me to one! Maybe a KVA but I haven't seen a running GT40 replica of any sort in the US for less than $75k. They appear all the time in Europe for less but aren't really importable.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roaring Forties:
"...As a final point, the less others can copy my work and assuming it is at least good, the more desireable it remains and therefore the more valuable the RF remains.
I am not in the full bloded race game but I would not expect them to send full drawings to their competitors either directly or otherwise.
Please do not think this arrogant but I have repeated this many times before and have NO intention of releasing our manual to the general public. I fully understand that it would help would be purchasers to buy but I believe it would cause more harm to my company than good. I will not be drawn into further dialogue regarding this matter.
For those wishing to view our manual please contact either Gordon or myself..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would never call you arrogant because you wouldn't sell your book, nor would I want to drag out an argument about it.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that no kit car purchase should ever be made without having all of the information available.
And I also know for a fact that you can't just sit down, read a manual an completely understand it. I know this, because I have read many manuals and know what I'm supposed to be looking at, and I still sometimes scratch my head and wonder what exactly the manufacturer had in mind when they wrote down a specific step. Sometimes it takes months to fully comprehend a build manual. On something as complex as some of the GT40s can be, I can't imagine sitting down for an afternoon and fully understanding what all is involved. It takes more than one bathroom read to get all the steps down.
I will agree that your opinion is different than mine. That's fine. I respect your opinion. As soon as my manual is available, you're welcome to purchase one. I've got nothing to hide.
Your pal,
Meat.
"...As a final point, the less others can copy my work and assuming it is at least good, the more desireable it remains and therefore the more valuable the RF remains.
I am not in the full bloded race game but I would not expect them to send full drawings to their competitors either directly or otherwise.
Please do not think this arrogant but I have repeated this many times before and have NO intention of releasing our manual to the general public. I fully understand that it would help would be purchasers to buy but I believe it would cause more harm to my company than good. I will not be drawn into further dialogue regarding this matter.
For those wishing to view our manual please contact either Gordon or myself..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would never call you arrogant because you wouldn't sell your book, nor would I want to drag out an argument about it.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that no kit car purchase should ever be made without having all of the information available.
And I also know for a fact that you can't just sit down, read a manual an completely understand it. I know this, because I have read many manuals and know what I'm supposed to be looking at, and I still sometimes scratch my head and wonder what exactly the manufacturer had in mind when they wrote down a specific step. Sometimes it takes months to fully comprehend a build manual. On something as complex as some of the GT40s can be, I can't imagine sitting down for an afternoon and fully understanding what all is involved. It takes more than one bathroom read to get all the steps down.
I will agree that your opinion is different than mine. That's fine. I respect your opinion. As soon as my manual is available, you're welcome to purchase one. I've got nothing to hide.
Your pal,
Meat.
Ok, about the manuel thing. Robert, I can appreciate your stand and have no problems with that. And, Meat, I appreciate what you are saying. So really, I hope there has been enough said about it. I am currently making arrangements to see the car and hopefully get some insight. I have also contacted Mr. Levy and he was very helpful in answering all my questions. He seams to be a no BS straight up guy.
No kit car manufactuer wants an unfinshed project sitting in someones garage. It doesn't sell cars. I am delighted to see this industry progress and hopefully thrive. So....I think it would be a good idea for a manufacturer to offer a video...just an overview.. highlighting the steps and tools needed to build their car and at the same time advertise the availability of their turn key. Visualization sells products. And fair enough, charge for the video, refundable on purchase. Personally I think the process of building the car and watching it take shape is just as much fun as driving the car if the building process is simple enough. To me, drilling holes and riviting prefited sheet metal is simple. Cutting and bending sheetmetal to a pattern...forget it. So these are the types of things I am curious about. And of course, this type of information is readily available to me. I'm only offering these thoughts as a prospective customer because I love the concept of this industry and really want it to do well. Or had one too many beers and should keep my thoughts to myself.
BTW, thanks for all the imput on the subject.
Dave
No kit car manufactuer wants an unfinshed project sitting in someones garage. It doesn't sell cars. I am delighted to see this industry progress and hopefully thrive. So....I think it would be a good idea for a manufacturer to offer a video...just an overview.. highlighting the steps and tools needed to build their car and at the same time advertise the availability of their turn key. Visualization sells products. And fair enough, charge for the video, refundable on purchase. Personally I think the process of building the car and watching it take shape is just as much fun as driving the car if the building process is simple enough. To me, drilling holes and riviting prefited sheet metal is simple. Cutting and bending sheetmetal to a pattern...forget it. So these are the types of things I am curious about. And of course, this type of information is readily available to me. I'm only offering these thoughts as a prospective customer because I love the concept of this industry and really want it to do well. Or had one too many beers and should keep my thoughts to myself.
BTW, thanks for all the imput on the subject.
Dave
G
Guest
Guest
The formal definition of intellectual property (definable as an asset to a business in the US) is material that is: 1) Trade Secret, 2) Copyrighted and/or Service Marked, or 3) Patented.
The owner can pretty much categorize it how ever they so choose.
The potential buyer must decide if seeing the build manual prior to purchase is important to them.
I have always felt it unfortunate that Robert chooses to take the position he has taken. But, that is Robert's choice.
mike starling
The owner can pretty much categorize it how ever they so choose.
The potential buyer must decide if seeing the build manual prior to purchase is important to them.
I have always felt it unfortunate that Robert chooses to take the position he has taken. But, that is Robert's choice.
mike starling
While I was initially disapointed that the construction manual was not availble, the respons from Robert and Gordon to my questions made up for not having the manual.
By asking questions and recieving answers from both of these gentlemen helped define what I wanted and what was provided better than any maual. It also showed me that they would be very involved and assist me in any way I needed.
As to Copyright, etc. it is important to remeber we have a leagal system in the US not a justice system.
By asking questions and recieving answers from both of these gentlemen helped define what I wanted and what was provided better than any maual. It also showed me that they would be very involved and assist me in any way I needed.
As to Copyright, etc. it is important to remeber we have a leagal system in the US not a justice system.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jay Thompson:
While I was initially disapointed that the construction manual was not availble, the respons from Robert and Gordon to my questions made up for not having the manual.
By asking questions and recieving answers from both of these gentlemen helped define what I wanted and what was provided better than any maual. It also showed me that they would be very involved and assist me in any way I needed.
As to Copyright, etc. it is important to remeber we have a leagal system in the US not a justice system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That sounds exactly like the patented "you'll forget about all of the build problems and the missing parts and the back orders as soon as you finish the car" response you get from a certain group of Cobra/Roadster builders, and it's not acceptable, nor should it ever be acceptable.
As to the U.S. legal system...it's the best in the world; there's liberty and justice for all. If you don't like it, here's your coat, sorry you stayed so long.
Your pal,
Meat.
While I was initially disapointed that the construction manual was not availble, the respons from Robert and Gordon to my questions made up for not having the manual.
By asking questions and recieving answers from both of these gentlemen helped define what I wanted and what was provided better than any maual. It also showed me that they would be very involved and assist me in any way I needed.
As to Copyright, etc. it is important to remeber we have a leagal system in the US not a justice system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That sounds exactly like the patented "you'll forget about all of the build problems and the missing parts and the back orders as soon as you finish the car" response you get from a certain group of Cobra/Roadster builders, and it's not acceptable, nor should it ever be acceptable.
As to the U.S. legal system...it's the best in the world; there's liberty and justice for all. If you don't like it, here's your coat, sorry you stayed so long.
Your pal,
Meat.
One of the reasons I bought a turnkey RF40 was that I thought a build was beyond my humble ability. Robert sent me a build manual when they were produced and I have got say that this is no ordinary build manual,photocopied and stapled together. It is very well produced with great detail and colour photos. I have to stop myself from the temptation to build after a close read of the manual, as it has to my mind removed the unknown. I can fully understand Robert not wanting some competitor to jump start their business on the back of his hard work. Regards
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