Israel and Gaza?

[Paul fortin]

There is a no win when fighting idiots. The Arabs have attacked Israel a number of times and lost each times. Those governments almost fell each time the Arabs lost ground each time and then cry that Israel took their land. I am not saying all Arabs are bad they
Hey just have bad leaders. I don't have any answers but to me if your dumb enought to shot unguided rockets at someone is it their fault they have ones that they can aim.

 

[Larry L.]

I think it's time for someone to do something different, and as the side with more options, I hope the Israelis do it.

Hamas' lack of options is a strawman, Doc. Hamas already HAS the one option it needs to end all this. They've had it since 'day one'. IT COULD STOP ITS ROCKET/MORTAR/SUICIDE BOMBER ATTACKS ON ISRAEL. Palestinian deaths would end with them.

'No rocket science involved here (no pun intended).

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I received this from a friend of a friend. . Her artist friend from Israel sent her the following....
It has taken me some days to write down something coherent… but this is how I feel tonight.
I feel like I weigh 500 pounds.
Everyone I know feels like they are walking through water.
And sad. We are all so very, very sad.
This is what I know right now, today:
The ugliness, the venom and sheer, violent hatred you are seeing in Paris, London, Berlin, LA, Boston, Denver…. this is just the beginning.
We Jews are the canaries in the coal mine for all of humanity. Today, they are throwing bricks at synagogues and smashing chairs and saying “Kill the Jews.”
Tomorrow it will be someone else.
Do the French really think these people will protect and safeguard the treasures of the Louvre?
Do Londoners really think these people will cherish the symbols of the British Empire?
Does anyone really think this is only about Israel and the disputed territories?
Today it is Israel, tomorrow it will be you.
Maybe that is why everyone gets so disproportionately annoyed about this conflict. Because everyone knows after us it gets real personal…
Seeing these violent protests, hearing the sickening screams for death we Israelis understand better than ever we must fight for every square inch and with all we have.
It matters not how much better our military is, how much more precise our targets can be.
It only matters that when the smoke clears Hamas is disarmed, destroyed, disabled and defeated. Forever.
Hamas. NOT the people of Gaza. I feel so very sorry for them. Sorry they were misguided and elected these lunatics. Sorry that in their desperation they allowed Hamas to fill the empty bedrooms next to their children’s room with rockets. Sorry that their leaders have mansions and swimming pools and are sitting in air conditioning in another city while they are sweating and wondering where the roof over their houses went. (If not their house itself.) Sorry that they have been brought up with no inkling of who Israelis are nor what compromise is.
Defeating Hamas will be a big problem for the power brokers because shame and honor are all that matter in this part of the world.
Honor in the Middle East does not come from whether your children are literate, how successful you are, how much money you make, how civilized your community is, nor how many paved roads you have, and whether or not you have garbage collection and recycling.
Here in this part of the world- for Hamas, honor comes from getting revenge.
For them revenge is everything.
For them revenge is the only thing.
Remember we left Gaza. There was no blockade. They were free to build a model democracy- the first successful shining, taste of the new, proud Palestine. But they didn’t want that kind of success…
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
We will not be fooled again.
We have nowhere else to go. And the rockets won’t stop.
The folks in Ashkelon cannot shower, have a bowel movement, get more milk or walk a dog without wondering if they are taking their lives in their own hands.
There is another Gaza underneath Gaza.
Hamas could have built hundred of schools, paved thousands of roads, build hundreds of kindergartens with the cement and iron they have used to build these underground bunkers and tunnels.
( and you wondered why Israel put a blockade on bringing building supplies into the Gaza strip?)
These tunnels to hell are filled with ammunition.
And no women or children, not a single elderly person is brought to safety there.
They want them on the street- on the roof, standing right behind- nice and close to the terrorist firing the rocket.
Hamas has refused to let journalists out of Gaza.
Why?
They need them to take pictures and record the carefully staged piles of bloody children and women. If the journalists leave they have lost the vehicle for distributing their bloody ad campaign.
Hamas asked for a cease-fire.
And they broke it.
They break every single one.
Israel is setting up a massive field hospital to treat our enemies. From 8 pm on tonight there will be a working maternity ward, an operating theater…a working hospital. For… our enemies.
We are going to lose more boys. Last night we lost 13. With each day we are going to lose more.
But everyone here now understands this is a fight to the death. It is them or us.
They cannot compromise and they don’t want peace or to share or to negotiate. They want revenge even if it means killing their own people.
So we have to go in there and do things none of us want to do, but we have to.
So this is why we are all so sad.
Israelis want peace so badly.
But we also desperately want to live. We love life and we are not about to let anyone, let alone a bunch of deranged thugs take it away from us.
So yes, this is a fight to the death for both sides.
Remember, if they win, you are next.
If we win those symbols of civilization that everyone takes so for granted will remain standing and everyone will criticize and complain about disproportionate responses and war crimes and all kinds of other irrelevant nonsense, but secretly I think everyone will be heaving s sigh of relief.

 

[Larry L.]

^^^ EGG-dadgum-ZACKLY.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Wow, now that was unbiased. Oh woe is me. We are soooo victimized.

The author wants peace as long as it doesn't interfere with his/her hand-wringing, or become an inconvenience.

 

[Larry L.]

Wow, now that was unbiased. Oh woe is me. We are soooo victimized.

Which side launches missiles, etc., aimed soley at civilian targets - ON PURPOSE...with the sole INTENT of killing civilians?

You're all wet on this one, blue'.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Of course it's biased, but as Larry says the Israelis don't launch rockets from hospitals and schools Hamas does. They are cowards who hide behind women and children hoping that Israel won't retaliate. And when Israel does retaliate they have they media ready to take pictures of damaged babies and the hand wringing rest of the world says how terrible those Israelis are, which is exactly what Hamas wants.
I think the operative words are if Israel loses this conflict we are next.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Wow, now that was unbiased. Oh woe is me. We are soooo victimized.

The author wants peace as long as it doesn't interfere with his/her hand-wringing, or become an inconvenience.

You are the one doing the hand wringing. The Israelis took the Gaza strip in 1967 when they were attacked by most of the Arab world.The Israelis left Gaza in Palestinian control in 2005 and evicted Israelis from settlements in Gaza, the Israelis that wouldn't leave had their home demolished by the Israeli government. They reserved the right to monitor for weapons being brought into Gaza. Israel has never been the aggressor, and only counter attacks when attacked first. You don't piss and moan when a suicide bomber kills in Israel or rocket are rained down at the average of 70+ per day during July this year. The Israelis did NOT start this, but they sure as fuck will finish it! Find something worthwhile to hand wring over.
Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Which side launches missiles, etc., aimed soley at civilian targets - ON PURPOSE...with the sole INTENT of killing civilians?

You're all wet on this one, blue'.

Ironic that hundreds of missiles were launched, resulting in only a single casualty, until the "bereaved" sent their forces in resulting in a much larger casualty rate for their own. Interesting strategy.

I don't know all the facts, and neither does anyone else in this discussion. Silly letters by those that pretend (or actually believe) they are THE humanitarians in this conflict is a bit over the top. Now, if they did as many Western nations have done in the past, in supporting the rebuilding of the conquered territory, (e.g. Japan, Germany), then there may be a quite different outcome in all of this...perhaps, perhaps not, but obviously Israel's current strategy is a complete ongoing running failure.

I wonder how many additional terrorists (surviving members of lost families) Israel has created in the past month out of folks that only wanted to live in peace? Hamas is not Palestine, just as...let's say for sake of this particular audience...Obama is not America.

 

[Pat]

Ironic that hundreds of missiles were launched, resulting in only a single casualty, until the "bereaved" sent their forces in resulting in a much larger casualty rate for their own. Interesting strategy.

Now, if they did as many Western nations have done in the past, in supporting the rebuilding of the conquered territory, (e.g. Japan, Germany), then there may be a quite different outcome in all of this...perhaps, perhaps not, but obviously Israel's current strategy is a complete ongoing running failure.

QUOTE]

Just for the record:
Since the establishment of limited Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the mid-1990s, the U.S. government has committed approximately $5 billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians, who are among the world’s largest per capita recipients of international foreign aid. Successive Administrations have requested aid for the Palestinians in apparent support of at least three major U.S. policy priorities of interest to Congress:
• Preventing terrorism against Israel from Hamas and other militant organizations.
• Fostering stability, prosperity, and self-governance in the West Bank that inclines
Palestinians toward peaceful coexistence with Israel and a “two-state solution.”
• Meeting humanitarian needs.
From FY2008 to the present, annual Economic Support Fund (ESF) assistance to the West Bank and Gaza Strip has averaged around $400 million, with that amount divided between U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID)-administered project assistance (through grants to contracting organizations) and direct budgetary assistance to the Palestinian Authority (PA).
Annual International Narcotics Control and Law Enforcement (INCLE) nonlethal assistance for
PA security forces and the criminal justice sector in the West Bank has averaged around $100million. In line with Obama Administration requests, funding levels declined slightly in FY2013, with a new baseline of overall annual ESF assistance of $370 million, and a new baseline of annual INCLE assistance of $70 million.

As far as the Israel strategy being a failure, the missiles for now seemed to have stopped and being an old army vet, I've never been one to take much stock in measuring success in body counts...

 

[Larry L.]

Ironic that hundreds of missiles were launched, resulting in only a single casualty, until the "bereaved" sent their forces in resulting in a much larger casualty rate for their own. Interesting strategy.

Oooooooh, I see. So, I take it you believe Israel ought to give Hamas unlimited 'passes' and 'mulligans' due to their bad marksmanship and just keep ITS OWN guns holstered? (P.S. Hamas has launched THOUSANDS of missiles...not "hundreds"...and the ONLY reason large numbers of Israeli civilians haven't been killed is the fact that Israel has constructed ubiquitous bomb shelters for their people to occupy during a 'shelling'...Hamas/Gaza has not. Hamas/Gaza has/have put their focus on building hidden tunnels into Israel from which to launch/carry out a-t-t-a-c-k-s on Israel.)

I don't know all the facts...

...and apparently you chose to ignore the facts that are right in front of you!

I wonder how many additional terrorists (surviving members of lost families) Israel has created in the past month out of folks that only wanted to live in peace?

'Strawman. Again, you're suggesting Israel shouldn't retaliate/defend itself out of fear of creating more nut jobs??? Following that logic, the Allies shouldn't have retaliated against the Axis and Japan in WWII.

BTW, you seem to suggest Israel doesn't want peace. It's not THEY who initiate attacks. 'Never have. They've always responded to them...after weeks of putting up with 'em.



You might want to "smell the coffee".

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Larry,

It appears I've been misunderstood as unilaterally supporting Hamas. I don't support Israel in this either. Israel is much more artful in "working" their Western supporters and in gaining support for it's actions, whereas Hamas won't fool with that kind of diplomatic nonsense. Veek notes we've attempted to help the Palestinians, but simultaneously we will not seriously discourage Israel from its continued ongoing expansion into the Palestinian territory. It's like replacing stolen property in your house while the burglar is still walking away with your property.

My point is simply that we should stop (or significantly reduce) supporting Israel and let them become more accountable for their actions. The US is creating an unnatural imbalance in that region. As long as the Stars and Stripes continue to shield Israel (at least at the current rate), they will not be incented to deal with with the results of their actions.

Last question. Do you see any difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people any differently than what Russia is doing to the Ukranian people? Russia appears to be effectively supporting the reduction of the Ukranian territory through military support. We see that as inappropriate, yet we don't see our support for Israel's activities in the same light.

 

[Pat]

Larry,
Last question. Do you see any difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people any differently than what Russia is doing to the Ukranian people? Russia appears to be effectively supporting the reduction of the Ukranian territory through military support. We see that as inappropriate, yet we don't see our support for Israel's activities in the same light.

Well, the Hamas military is lobbing missiles by the thousands into Israel. In fact they resumed rocket fire a few hours ago after refusing to accept a continuation of the truce brokered by Egypt. What would happen if the Ukraine Army fired one missile into Russia?

Hamas has in it's charter a commitment to destroy Israel and kill Jews. What would happen if the Ukraine government announced it's intention to destroy Russia?

Your moral equivalency argument is absurd.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Larry,



Last question. Do you see any difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people any differently than what Russia is doing to the Ukranian people? Russia appears to be effectively supporting the reduction of the Ukranian territory through military support. We see that as inappropriate, yet we don't see our support for Israel's activities in the same light.

Do you actually read what you put up here? Russia attacked the Ukrainians without provocation to seize land, the Israelis are reacting to missile attacks by Hamas. Israel is not counter attacking to get land in Gaza, they gave that land to the Palestinians. Our support for Israel cannot be seen in the same light, it's for survival, not a land grab. One thing, and only one thing has to be done to have peace, Hamas has to stop their attacks.

Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

What the left would like.

 

[Larry L.]

Larry,

It appears I've been misunderstood as unilaterally supporting Hamas. I don't support Israel in this either. Israel is much more artful in "working" their Western supporters and in gaining support for it's actions, whereas Hamas won't fool with that kind of diplomatic nonsense. Veek notes we've attempted to help the Palestinians, but simultaneously we will not seriously discourage Israel from its continued ongoing expansion into the Palestinian territory. It's like replacing stolen property in your house while the burglar is still walking away with your property.

My point is simply that we should stop (or significantly reduce) supporting Israel and let them become more accountable for their actions. The US is creating an unnatural imbalance in that region. As long as the Stars and Stripes continue to shield Israel (at least at the current rate), they will not be incented to deal with with the results of their actions.

Last question. Do you see any difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people any differently than what Russia is doing to the Ukranian people? Russia appears to be effectively supporting the reduction of the Ukranian territory through military support. We see that as inappropriate, yet we don't see our support for Israel's activities in the same light.

Your moral equivalency argument is absurd.

Pat (Al ,too) summed it up pretty well IMHO. One either 'gets' the diffs or he doesn't. One either understands the history involved or he doesn't. One either understands/recognizes the 'hows and whys' of the individual tactics being employed by the two sides for what they really are or he doesn't. One either understands the different motivations driving each side or he doesn't. It appears you're one who doesn't...or you are someone who just choses to see things thru odd colored glasses for whatever reason. (That's not a 'slam', blue', just deductions made based on your arguments.:chug

 

[Nick]

Pat (Al ,too) summed it up pretty well IMHO. One either 'gets' the diffs or he doesn't. One either understands the history involved or he doesn't. One either understands/recognizes the 'hows and whys' of the individual tactics being employed by the two sides for what they really are or he doesn't. One either understands the different motivations driving each side or he doesn't. It appears you're one who doesn't...or you are someone who just choses to see things thru odd colored glasses for whatever reason. (That's not a 'slam', blue', just deductions made based on your arguments.:chug

I guess through your glasses our own Jim Rosenthal a man of great integrity IMHO and these guys all of who have a direct stake in the situation but are still prepared to speak out as two wrongs don't make a right, don't get it.

Hell what would they know about it in any case.

The stunning Oscar-nominated documentary, “The Gatekeepers” … brings together six former heads of Israel’s internal security agency, the Shin Bet, collectively speaking out for the first time ever. They detail their methods against Palestinian militants and civilians in the Occupied Territories, including targeted killings, torture, recruiting informants, and the suppression of mass protests during two intifadas. But in doing so, they also criticize the occupation they were assigned with defending and warn that successive Israeli governments have endangered their country’s future by refusing to make peace. “We are making the lives of millions unbearable, into prolonged human suffering, [and] it kills me,” Carmi Gillon says in the film. “[We’ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II,” adds Avraham Shalom

Our support for Israel cannot be seen in the same light, it's for survival, not a land grab. [/url]

Israel's new land grab is clearly illegal
The Defense Minister’s green light to appropriate land in the West Bank places him in the extreme right and shatters Israelis’ hopes for resolving the conflict with the Palestinians.
Haaretz Editorial | Apr. 15, 2014 | 6:55 PM | 9

 

[Larry L.]

The stunning Oscar-nominated documentary, “The Gatekeepers” … brings together six former heads of Israel’s internal security agency, the Shin Bet, collectively speaking out for the first time ever. They detail their methods against Palestinian militants and civilians in the Occupied Territories, including targeted killings, torture, recruiting informants, and the suppression of mass protests during two intifadas. But in doing so, they also criticize the occupation they were assigned with defending and warn that successive Israeli governments have endangered their country’s future by refusing to make peace. “We are making the lives of millions unbearable, into prolonged human suffering, [and] it kills me,” Carmi Gillon says in the film. “[We’ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II,” adds Avraham Shalom

I can point out several people in our own govt who say/have said we brought 9/11 on ourselves, too...Ron Paul for one.

 

[Nick]

I can point out several people in our own govt who say/have said we brought 9/11 on ourselves, too...Ron Paul for one.

Careful there Larry you may get someone accusing you of an Aunt Sally argument with that one .

 

[Larry L.]

Careful there Larry you may get someone accusing you of an Aunt Sally argument with that one .

:squint: ??? :shrug: