First of all, no commies on this forum,,we are all religious people.
Second of all, your lack of height would be a hindrance in your copulation attempt.......said with No cheek and a lot of tongue.
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First of all, no commies on this forum,,we are all religious people.
Second of all, your lack of height would be a hindrance in your copulation attempt.......said with No cheek and a lot of tongue.
Howard - your response, or lack thereof doesn't surprise me. It's always commie this, commie that, whatever this, whatever that, all you can do to avoid the discussion.
Dave - I don't know what you are saying. You imply I don't respect your opinion. I do - except for the fact that many of your "opinions" are not your opinions - they are someone else's passed on to you through the "bible." Trying to remind me of the biology and physiology of a growing baby does not support your argument. All it tells me is that you do not respect your own intelligence when it comes to topics like this and you do whatever the book says. Didn't you say something about sheep?
Your opinion does not offend me - people like you consistently become antagonistic in these discussions. Instead talking about the issue you talk about me. I am talking about the fact that you simply don't even have an opinion on it - you are reflecting the "word of God."
Opinions are very good and are what drive a democracy. But that implies that someone may be able to change your mind, even a little with their own opinions. That can't happen when someone gets their "opinions" from the bible. They will never change unless they stray from the bible. Hence no real opinion, no reason for discourse, no way to even have an intelligent discussion about the topic. Once again, we are now talking about a theocracy, not a democracy. Don't forget where the democratic party got it's name from.
And no, I am not a democrat - I am a registered independent because I think on my own but not only for myself.
My $.0666 :love:
Dave - I don't know what you are saying. You imply I don't respect your opinion. I do - except for the fact that many of your "opinions" are not your opinions - they are someone else's passed on to you through the "bible." Trying to remind me of the biology and physiology of a growing baby does not support your argument. All it tells me is that you do not respect your own intelligence when it comes to topics like this and you do whatever the book says. Didn't you say something about sheep?
Your opinion does not offend me - people like you consistently become antagonistic in these discussions. Instead talking about the issue you talk about me. I am talking about the fact that you simply don't even have an opinion on it - you are reflecting the "word of God."
Opinions are very good and are what drive a democracy. But that implies that someone may be able to change your mind, even a little with their own opinions. That can't happen when someone gets their "opinions" from the bible. They will never change unless they stray from the bible. Hence no real opinion, no reason for discourse, no way to even have an intelligent discussion about the topic. Once again, we are now talking about a theocracy, not a democracy. Don't forget where the democratic party got it's name from.
And no, I am not a democrat - I am a registered independent because I think on my own but not only for myself.
My $.0666 :love:
Chris I'm not sure you are being completely fair in saying it isn't an opinion if you get it from the Bible. It is my opinion and belief that the Bible is the inerant Word of God and yes that does shape my world views and opinions but it does not make me a blind follower. I came upon my faith through real life experience and have seen God's intervention at moments in my life so I don't feel that makes me a sheep. FWIW I don't beleive in a number of things that are accepted social norms but again as referenced in "the book" it is my duty to hate the sin but love the sinner thus I don't feel it's my place to legislate the decisions you or anyone else makes but I don't want to finance it with my taxes. My two cents whether you believe they are my own thoughts or not.
Tim - You forgot about the part where He gave us Free-Will.... And that He knows, by our human nature, we will stray but will be forgiven if it's confessed to Him and ask for forgiveness..
So many figure that if you're a Christian, you are just a blind follower and they understand so little about the faith that drives us.
So many figure that if you're a Christian, you are just a blind follower and they understand so little about the faith that drives us.
Nothing much has changed:
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office."
-- Aesop
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office."
-- Aesop
Alright, alright, alright, let's not get off track here. I know the bible doesn't tell you which foot to put in front of the other, I'm talking about major fundamental choices that I (or a woman) would like to be able to make that aren't dictated to me by someone else who hasn't even made that choice by themselves, rather took it straight from a book. (This is the hypocrisy of so many right wingers and the main topic here - they consistently talk about their freedoms and our Constitution but then have no problem taking certain unbased freedoms centered around their own personal faith away from others). If a christian woman doesn't want to get an abortion because of her beliefs than fine; don't get an abortion. If a non christian woman does want to get an abortion, no one should be able have more control over her personal self in that decision than her. You need to understand as a christian that if that woman made the wrong choice in "god's" eyes then that is an issue she will have to take up with god. It is not up to you. This all goes back to democracy. If the church had its way, every law in this land would be attributed to a passage from the bible and we would become a theocracy. There would not be a need for any vote. So let women choose as they may. It's their issue to take up with your god, not yours.
Howard - you're so eloquent. You're so far out in the right that from that distance you think I'm in the left. At least we share the love for the same car.
Howard - you're so eloquent. You're so far out in the right that from that distance you think I'm in the left. At least we share the love for the same car.
Yes I am and no I am not. They made Amendments right off the start. We continue to struggle to make further definition of our rights constantly...
respectfully,
mike
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Chris:
I need to know when you feel Life begins? Now I am not talking thought I am talking Life? Does an abortion terminate life as you define it? I am not looking to make you angry. I don't want your freedom of choice. But does a baby have a choice? You see I have to function under a law Thou shalt not Kill. But you being the independent thinker that answers to your thought process. Which puts your thoughts in the place of where God is for me. So like all post modern thinking people you come to the conclusion that what is good and right for you may not be good and right for me. The Romans would leave their babies on the street to die. Some countries use abortion for getting specific gender of children. I met a lady once who had eight abortions she was very emotionally hurt.
You never answered one question have you ever been to a third world country? Dave
I need to know when you feel Life begins? Now I am not talking thought I am talking Life? Does an abortion terminate life as you define it? I am not looking to make you angry. I don't want your freedom of choice. But does a baby have a choice? You see I have to function under a law Thou shalt not Kill. But you being the independent thinker that answers to your thought process. Which puts your thoughts in the place of where God is for me. So like all post modern thinking people you come to the conclusion that what is good and right for you may not be good and right for me. The Romans would leave their babies on the street to die. Some countries use abortion for getting specific gender of children. I met a lady once who had eight abortions she was very emotionally hurt.
You never answered one question have you ever been to a third world country? Dave
Why can’t one love god but despise religion?! What would god say, if told, I love thee, but your “messenger pretenders” SUCK
Why can’t people get over this crap called the “constitution”? Don’t get me wrong it is a fantastic piece of document (like an ERA manual, or a great Automotive procedure) BUT, it is written by the vilest of all creatures ,,MEN (Old wrinkled white men at that). So What???
If it needs changing/upgrading (like adding 6 piston willwood calipers to any build manual), then so be it. We need Revision levels
The dumbest thing these “founding Poopers” did was to separate Religion from the State. Had they NOT done that, we could (and certainly would) have decapitated Spider Mickey and Christopher Patriot. We the religious ones know the “word” of god
Why can’t people get over this crap called the “constitution”? Don’t get me wrong it is a fantastic piece of document (like an ERA manual, or a great Automotive procedure) BUT, it is written by the vilest of all creatures ,,MEN (Old wrinkled white men at that). So What???
If it needs changing/upgrading (like adding 6 piston willwood calipers to any build manual), then so be it. We need Revision levels
The dumbest thing these “founding Poopers” did was to separate Religion from the State. Had they NOT done that, we could (and certainly would) have decapitated Spider Mickey and Christopher Patriot. We the religious ones know the “word” of god
I don't know when life begins, no one can peg that. One can argue that it is not at the first cell division. One can argue that it IS at the first cell division. Does that mean that life already exists in each sperm and egg, even before the missing chromosomes come together? When intelligent, reasonable people speak in support of abortion, they are not talking about a blanket "kill the baby whenever you feel like it." abortion. They are talking about NOT doing the exact opposite where a mother has absolutely no choice, even when her own life is in danger as an example. This is a good example of what I have been saying - religion gives the devout follower no room for his/her opinion based on factual evidence, or anything else for that matter. So a non christian woman in a hospital somewhere who wants and needs an abortion for her own health doesn't have a say in her outcome. You do. I understand part of the issue is not religion based - at some point a living being is being killed - and when is this point? I don't know, but I don't reasonably think it is at conception. I also would not support an abortion in the third trimester either, no matter what the consequences.
One needs to define life first. As silly as that sounds, you did specifically ask me about LIFE, not THOUGHT. And no, this does not make me angry, don't worry about that.
And no, I have not visited a third world country.
Thou shalt not kill. Do you support war? Do you support capital punishment? Do you support killing animals for sport?
For those questioning whether or not the Constitution is a living document, the bible itself is one.
Personally, I think abortion is the toughest of all the issues because it involves someone who has no say in the matter. Part of me wants to take the safe way out and just say no one can have an abortion at all at any time. But then part of me doesn't feel that's reasonable either, when you start to really look at the situation biologically.
In my opinion, the right to die and stem cell issues as examples, are far more clear cut.
One needs to define life first. As silly as that sounds, you did specifically ask me about LIFE, not THOUGHT. And no, this does not make me angry, don't worry about that.
And no, I have not visited a third world country.
Thou shalt not kill. Do you support war? Do you support capital punishment? Do you support killing animals for sport?
For those questioning whether or not the Constitution is a living document, the bible itself is one.
Personally, I think abortion is the toughest of all the issues because it involves someone who has no say in the matter. Part of me wants to take the safe way out and just say no one can have an abortion at all at any time. But then part of me doesn't feel that's reasonable either, when you start to really look at the situation biologically.
In my opinion, the right to die and stem cell issues as examples, are far more clear cut.
Chris:
You know as Americans we are passionate about our beliefs. The problem you have discussed with a woman needing an abortion to preserve her life is not where most of us have a problem. It is when people use the procedure for birth control or so they can live their lives with no regard as to their behavior. Life in our country has become cheap. What I mean is not held in value. If life is not held as a something of value then no one cares when one is lost.
Take time to travel a bit if you get a chance to go to a third world country by all means go. It opened my eyes. Our nation has so much
Our fore fathers came from some of these places that is why they designed our laws to protect our freedoms. My wife is from south africa
she came here with her daughter and a couple of suit cases of clothes
to escape a place where her home was robbed three times in three weeks.
Obama or not we still got it good.
You know as Americans we are passionate about our beliefs. The problem you have discussed with a woman needing an abortion to preserve her life is not where most of us have a problem. It is when people use the procedure for birth control or so they can live their lives with no regard as to their behavior. Life in our country has become cheap. What I mean is not held in value. If life is not held as a something of value then no one cares when one is lost.
Take time to travel a bit if you get a chance to go to a third world country by all means go. It opened my eyes. Our nation has so much
Our fore fathers came from some of these places that is why they designed our laws to protect our freedoms. My wife is from south africa
she came here with her daughter and a couple of suit cases of clothes
to escape a place where her home was robbed three times in three weeks.
Obama or not we still got it good.
I'm a bit puzzled about all this. I would love to believe that Americans are passionate about Freedom and Democracy but it's one of the toughest regimes to live in (speaking as a "foreigner" for 6 years). The "Life Choice" debate is irrelevant as long as civilians are being killed (in 3rd world countries) in the name of "democracy" or at least your own perception of democracy.
I recently learned of women being sterilized in the US in a program designed to stop certain people breeding (without their knowledge). That doesn't exactly sound democratic to me - it sounds kind of, er, very right wing?
The subject of abortion is, in my humble opinion, a sideshow in the international game of brinkmanship which continues to threaten our very existence.
PS No offence is intended - I say this as opinions expressed here can sometimes excite some very passionate and worrying responses. As I live in a true democracy I reserve to right to express an opinion without being pilloried for it. After all, we spent over 2,000 years getting here..
I recently learned of women being sterilized in the US in a program designed to stop certain people breeding (without their knowledge). That doesn't exactly sound democratic to me - it sounds kind of, er, very right wing?
The subject of abortion is, in my humble opinion, a sideshow in the international game of brinkmanship which continues to threaten our very existence.
PS No offence is intended - I say this as opinions expressed here can sometimes excite some very passionate and worrying responses. As I live in a true democracy I reserve to right to express an opinion without being pilloried for it. After all, we spent over 2,000 years getting here..
Howard Jones
Supporter
After cooling down just a bit from Tue night I think I might need to apologize for the use of the F word. Sorry......really. But man some of us conservatives are really red hot over the way the Party has acted the last few years. Plenty of commies to go around in my view. But that's not a reason to attack people who I really don't know. Again sorry all. Unless you are a commie..... then...... well you know.
Luv, peace, flowers, green, yata yata yata.
Oh and Chris. I am more than capable of participating in a lengthy discussion on a variety of topics. I think that you in fact seam to be a relative informed and intelligent person. There you see, I am a nice guy, and I do think that god made people with brains for a reason. Now I THINK that life starts when two people (a man and a woman) have sex together, or agree to make a baby medically, and a the sperm and egg begin to combine to form a third and altogether distinct organism that wouldn't have existed without the combination.
Does this mean I would let the mom die to save a 30 day old embro? Of course not. Does the choice become harder at 9 months, of course it does. Is it wrong to partially remove a viable human being from the womb to kill the baby because the mother doesn't want it to live. Not really a question in my mine.
However.... The American people are just about 50% 50% on the general issue of abortion. I think that until those of us who are on the right side of the issue ( no not the correct side, the conservative side) need to continue to lobby the rest of the people until we can gain a rather large majority. Then as Americans do, we should respect the minority's opinion and restrict unnecessary, birth control, lazy people, abortions.
That's my opinion and it doesn't make yours wrong just different.
Feel the luv yet?
Luv, peace, flowers, green, yata yata yata.
Oh and Chris. I am more than capable of participating in a lengthy discussion on a variety of topics. I think that you in fact seam to be a relative informed and intelligent person. There you see, I am a nice guy, and I do think that god made people with brains for a reason. Now I THINK that life starts when two people (a man and a woman) have sex together, or agree to make a baby medically, and a the sperm and egg begin to combine to form a third and altogether distinct organism that wouldn't have existed without the combination.
Does this mean I would let the mom die to save a 30 day old embro? Of course not. Does the choice become harder at 9 months, of course it does. Is it wrong to partially remove a viable human being from the womb to kill the baby because the mother doesn't want it to live. Not really a question in my mine.
However.... The American people are just about 50% 50% on the general issue of abortion. I think that until those of us who are on the right side of the issue ( no not the correct side, the conservative side) need to continue to lobby the rest of the people until we can gain a rather large majority. Then as Americans do, we should respect the minority's opinion and restrict unnecessary, birth control, lazy people, abortions.
That's my opinion and it doesn't make yours wrong just different.
Feel the luv yet?
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"I need to know when life begins"
This "when" question will never be answered because it is irrelevant. The fact is that life began about 3.5 billion years ago and all life that has existed since is simply the continuity of that first life, including you, me the tree outside your front gate, the microbe at the bottom of the ocean, everything. This is why people who speak of the beginning of an individual life in absolute terms get into trouble. There is no such thing!
As I see it, the real question that we are attempting to answer is, not when life begins, but how we define an individual and what moral importance we place on that individuality. On that basis, the beginning (and for that matter the end) of life cannot be defined by the splitting of a cell or the passing through a passage. It is defined as a moral viewpoint and therefore exists only in the minds of humans as an opinion... it is therefore by its nature, very variable so can never be answered in factual terms.
"Now I THINK that life starts when two people (a man and a woman) have sex together, or agree to make a baby medically, and a the sperm and egg begin to combine to form a third and altogether distinct organism that wouldn't have existed without the combination."
So where does that put Dolly the sheep who was created from a single skin cell, or for that matter ANY cloned life (including any human life that may be created in the future). For that matter, its only a matter of time before science will be able to create a life from two people of the same sex, or three or more people of any sex. In fact science has already created animals that are a combination of a male and a female and a third unrelated species... sheep that are part pig and mice that are part algae. Whether you agree with the morals of it or not, you cannot disagree that these are all real autonomous lives.
Now I have to say that I have no qualms against people having whatever religious or moral belief that they want but I wish they would stop trying to explain it with a pseudo science that conveniently omits facts that don't fit.
This "when" question will never be answered because it is irrelevant. The fact is that life began about 3.5 billion years ago and all life that has existed since is simply the continuity of that first life, including you, me the tree outside your front gate, the microbe at the bottom of the ocean, everything. This is why people who speak of the beginning of an individual life in absolute terms get into trouble. There is no such thing!
As I see it, the real question that we are attempting to answer is, not when life begins, but how we define an individual and what moral importance we place on that individuality. On that basis, the beginning (and for that matter the end) of life cannot be defined by the splitting of a cell or the passing through a passage. It is defined as a moral viewpoint and therefore exists only in the minds of humans as an opinion... it is therefore by its nature, very variable so can never be answered in factual terms.
"Now I THINK that life starts when two people (a man and a woman) have sex together, or agree to make a baby medically, and a the sperm and egg begin to combine to form a third and altogether distinct organism that wouldn't have existed without the combination."
So where does that put Dolly the sheep who was created from a single skin cell, or for that matter ANY cloned life (including any human life that may be created in the future). For that matter, its only a matter of time before science will be able to create a life from two people of the same sex, or three or more people of any sex. In fact science has already created animals that are a combination of a male and a female and a third unrelated species... sheep that are part pig and mice that are part algae. Whether you agree with the morals of it or not, you cannot disagree that these are all real autonomous lives.
Now I have to say that I have no qualms against people having whatever religious or moral belief that they want but I wish they would stop trying to explain it with a pseudo science that conveniently omits facts that don't fit.
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I think you need to go back and do some more research on how Dolly was brought into this world...
In regard to Evolution - there are too many loose ends to tie together to even make it technically feasible.
Cases in point - If man were to have evolved from apes, then why do we still have apes? Did some of them miss the Evolution bus?
Birds - somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 species in the world..
Interesting little joke I read recently;
Howard Jones
Supporter
Well ChrisL, first let me say that we are not going to agree that humans are equal to trees. And second the idea that what is moral is variable based on interest is exactly what the u-tube post is all about. I mean, after all, that nice GT40 you have could be sold and the money could buy a lot other people food and clean water and, and, and. By the way how many square feet DOES it take for you and your family to stay dry and warm? Personal property is personal property, period. What's mine is mine unless I give it to you.....not have it taken from me and given to you. That's theft not charity. By the way taxes are paying your fair share of the COMMON cost of necessary goverment. The list is in the contitution. Morgage and car payment are not on it. Common defence is.
What is right is what is right. I will give an example. My daughter had a party the other day at our home. One of the boys dropped his wallet out on the lawn and I found it. The right thing to do is give it back with the $131 in it.....right? I am sure there are many people who will say something to the effect of loosers keepers or every person has the responsibility of maintaining the custody of his own property, or some other excuse to steal. Because that is what it would be, stealing. Taking what is not yours is stealing. Obama will make my morgage and car payment with other peoples money is stealing.
Killing is killing. Killing people is killing people. Killing defenceless babys because of an excuse is killing babys. Killing babys because it is in the selfish interest of the woman or others is wrong. I forgot to take my pill, I don't like how a rubber feels, I'm just stupid, or I made a mistake is an excuse. Give the baby up for adopton, don't make an excuse to kill it. It's really is that simple, isn't it?
Making things that are simple, complicated, for the purpose of fooling yourself or the stupid people who think spreading the wealth around isn't communism is propaganda. Propaganda is lieing. Lieing is wrong...right.
It is nice to get back to a friendly conversation though.
What is right is what is right. I will give an example. My daughter had a party the other day at our home. One of the boys dropped his wallet out on the lawn and I found it. The right thing to do is give it back with the $131 in it.....right? I am sure there are many people who will say something to the effect of loosers keepers or every person has the responsibility of maintaining the custody of his own property, or some other excuse to steal. Because that is what it would be, stealing. Taking what is not yours is stealing. Obama will make my morgage and car payment with other peoples money is stealing.
Killing is killing. Killing people is killing people. Killing defenceless babys because of an excuse is killing babys. Killing babys because it is in the selfish interest of the woman or others is wrong. I forgot to take my pill, I don't like how a rubber feels, I'm just stupid, or I made a mistake is an excuse. Give the baby up for adopton, don't make an excuse to kill it. It's really is that simple, isn't it?
Making things that are simple, complicated, for the purpose of fooling yourself or the stupid people who think spreading the wealth around isn't communism is propaganda. Propaganda is lieing. Lieing is wrong...right.
It is nice to get back to a friendly conversation though.
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Big Foot,
You're not serious... are you? You are just pulling my leg... right?
Howard,
I really struggle to follow your reasoning most of the time.
* You say that its stealing to take money without permission yet you think its OK to take my money without my permission to fund an immoral war in Iraq?
* Its wrong to kill innocent babies unless they are Iraqi babies?
Even though I disagree with your arguments I would still be able to accept it to some degree if you hadn't then negated it all by suggesting that there is no movement between what's right and what's wrong.
Incidentally, "commies under the bed" died when the Berlin Wall came down. And now with the financial meltdown of the capitalist system we have a nice pair of bookends. Lesson learnt? Extremist ideologies just don't work regardless of their leaning. Governments on both sides of the ledger now understand this even if some individuals don't. The time has come for open minds and open ideas... sounds a bit like liberal thinking to me.
PS. I stand corrected about Dolly and the skin cell. Dolly's DNA came from a mammary gland (skin cell clones came later) but that's just incidental to the fact that there was neither sperm nor egg donating the DNA.
You're not serious... are you? You are just pulling my leg... right?
Howard,
I really struggle to follow your reasoning most of the time.
* You say that its stealing to take money without permission yet you think its OK to take my money without my permission to fund an immoral war in Iraq?
* Its wrong to kill innocent babies unless they are Iraqi babies?
Even though I disagree with your arguments I would still be able to accept it to some degree if you hadn't then negated it all by suggesting that there is no movement between what's right and what's wrong.
Incidentally, "commies under the bed" died when the Berlin Wall came down. And now with the financial meltdown of the capitalist system we have a nice pair of bookends. Lesson learnt? Extremist ideologies just don't work regardless of their leaning. Governments on both sides of the ledger now understand this even if some individuals don't. The time has come for open minds and open ideas... sounds a bit like liberal thinking to me.
PS. I stand corrected about Dolly and the skin cell. Dolly's DNA came from a mammary gland (skin cell clones came later) but that's just incidental to the fact that there was neither sperm nor egg donating the DNA.
It's Binary Chris. There are no degrees of Sin. It is either a sin or it isn't a sin.
Only mankind has devised the degrees of a crime / sin.
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