Palestinians are all about piece right?

[Ian Anderson]

The chief of a small island nation called the "elders" around.
We have no food as the harvest has failed, no fish as we have overfished our seas and I can see our people failing in the current year.

I have a plan though we will declare ware on America and I will lead the charge- because of my advanced years I will be picked out and be the first and only casualty. You must then immediately surrender and the US and UN will support our Island Nation pump in millions and the Island Nation should be able to prosper again.

The youngest of the "elders" who was not up on politics said that's great - "But what happens if USA surrenders?"



Well I can relate the above to the Palestine situation - they are the ones declaring war and expecting the handouts. What would they contribute to the greater good of the whole area if Israel said "You Win - We surrender"?

Ian

 

[Nick]

The guy who got me into the nutso career almost 40 years ago has a house in Tiberias and I just may go and spend a few weeks there during the winter. I can then give you my impressions of Israel at that time.

The rules that I noted above were the non response by yourself to my questions. Sometimes its better that we just drop our point instead of furthering any anger or bitterness. We are just expressing our opinions, and as axxx holes, we all have them.

Domtoni,

Bit difficult to get a balanced view unless you stay in Palestine for a few weeks as well.

I have no bitterness or anger, many years ago when I was younger I stood in a very Conservative area district council election (hope Davis Morton does not read this he will have the hit squad round) as a Liberal and won.

This was before the age of the internet so heated debates were face to face, but that's all they were debates. It taught me to things though, there is always two sides to any story, and even as an elected council member I had very little power, the power is always held and controlled by a few.

 

[Jim Craik]

Ian,

Many years ago there was a strange little movie with just the plot you mentioned, it was called "The mouse that roared", starring Alec Guinness.

 

[Nick]

Well I can relate the above to the Palestine situation - they are the ones declaring war and expecting the handouts. What would they contribute to the greater good of the whole area if Israel said "You Win - We surrender"?

Ian

Ian,


I don't expect them to surrender, but I have been told they have one of the most advanced well equipped armies in the world. So I do believe they are capable of defending themselves without retaliation, that way they really can prove they are the peaceful ones.

Maybe if the arguably illegal blockade were lifted it would ease the necessity of handouts

Maritime lawyer Douglas Guilfoyle explains the legal background behind Israeli's blockade of ships carrying aid into Gaza. He says a blockade should not be continued if the 'damage to civilian population is going to be excessive in relation to the military advantage'.

BBC News - Today - Is Israel's blockade legal?

 

[Nick]

. You can't expect someone to be nice to you if slap him in the head every time he turns around, and you can't be surprised when he beats on you after every slap.

Problem is Al they are "slapping the wrong people"

SINCE 1987 1449 Palestinian CHILDREN UNDER 18 HAVE BEEN KILLED 142 Israeli CHILDREN

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Problem is Al they are "slapping the wrong people"

SINCE 1987 1449 Palestinian CHILDREN UNDER 18 HAVE BEEN KILLED 142 Israeli CHILDREN

Looks like about 10 to 1, that seems to be the Israeli formula for retaliation. Since 1987 you say, it would seem that the palestinians are really stupid, or slow learners. The first retaliation would have convinced me, 'let's be friends"!

 

[Nick]

Looks like about 10 to 1, that seems to be the Israeli formula for retaliation. Since 1987 you say, it would seem that the palestinians are really stupid, or slow learners. The first retaliation would have convinced me, 'let's be friends"!

Al,

Unfortunately, that is the same we are just retaliating excuse terrorists use for their attacks. So do we have to go right back to which caveman threw the first spear to apportion blame.

At some point such as happened in Northern Island someone has to be brave enough to start peace talks without pre conditions, and take all the criticism that will bring.


It's time Israel showed the same tolerance to the Palestinians that have been afforded to them by the US in the past.

They say you learn something everyday and until I did some research I never knew about this.

Israel Makes Unprovoked Attack on U.S. Navy Ship
The USS LIBERTY is attacked by Israel with aircraft and torpedo boats
Killing 34 and wounding 173. The dispute continues to this day.

ISRAEL MAKES UNPROVOKED ATTACK ON U.S. NAVY SHIP - Page 1

Perhaps the US should just have retaliated 10 fold and killed 340 Israelis.

Hold on, of course silly me I forgot Israel didn't mean to kill those children or US personnel, they should not have been there, it was a mistake so that's ok.

Except of course it's not ok for the families of anyone killed in conflict, particullaly when children are the victims.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

People tend to put all of the weight for starting peace talks on Israeli shoulders. The Israelis have had many peace agreements that have been broken by the Palestinians. It's time that the Palestinians take responsibility for the actions of their people. If they want peace, they should get rid of Hamas and other violent groups. We are not talking about one unprovoked attack here, we are talking about thousands of attacks. You're putting blame on the Israelis for retaliation against attacks. WTF do you want them to do? I am not saying what Israel did to the US ship in 1967 was at all right, but if you remember 1967 was when every Arab country tried to push Israel into the sea. In the process the arabs got their ass kicked, and lost a bunch of land which they have been whining about for the last 40 odd years. I would think that the Israelis were a bit jumpy in 1967, with good reason

 

[Nick]

You're putting blame on the Israelis for retaliation against attacks. WTF do you want them to do?

Be less trigger happy, more restrained, and abide by International Law like the vast majority of the British army manage to do the majority of the time, when severely provoked.

 

[Dusty]

I would expect a political thread like this from one of the vette forums, but not a more esteemed one like GT40 or GT forum. I'll add my two cents. There are two sides to every story and in my opinion Hamas is much like the Taliban. They exist because the supposed legit government has created a failed state due to corruption and mal treatment towards the populace. Hamas convinced the people they could bring law, justice and rid the state of political fat cats, and worthless pundits. A shadow government. Israel prob doesn't like Hamas because obviosuly there are some violent factions and they are a proxy army backed by a neighboring country wanting to add it's sphere of influence countering Israel's.

Politics, religion and Angelina Jolie's DSLs should never be topic in a forum. Okay well maybe the last one.

 

[Nick]

I would expect a political thread like this from one of the vette forums, but not a more esteemed one like GT40 or GT forum.

Politics, religion and Angelina Jolie's DSLs should never be topic in a forum. Okay well maybe the last one.

Dusty,

Please don’t take this the wrong way I understand your point I spend far to much time on this thread but I deperately want world peace bought about without violence. Perhaps I should have been a Miss World contestant.

I bore myself sometimes with my posts, but this thread is exactly what the paddock is for, people don’t have to read it if they don’t want to.

The problem is I was from a young age heavily involved in politics and religion so I’m stuffed. Being in telecoms DSL is digital subscriber line but I don’t think that is what you meant.

I post in the hope that one day Al will return from the dark side like the prodigal son, and who knows maybe even become a peace envoy for the Palestinians.


On a serious note, can't post without preaching.

Another remarkable man Terry Waite who more than any of us has seen and lived both sides of the argument, he says exactly what I feel I can add no more.



Terry Waite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Despite the fact that he was beaten, tortured, interrogated and left alone in the dark without books, papers or radio for an agonizingly 1,763 days in captivity, almost four years of which were in solitary confinement.", Waite says he harbors no bitterness against his captors.

“I don’t condone violence or terrorist activity of any sort, but I can certainly understand why these young men from Hizbollah did what they did. They have grown up with nothing but war and violence and have been denied their democratic rights all their lives,” he explains.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I would expect a political thread like this from one of the vette forums, but not a more esteemed one like GT40 or GT forum. I'll add my two cents. There are two sides to every story and in my opinion Hamas is much like the Taliban. They exist because the supposed legit government has created a failed state due to corruption and mal treatment towards the populace. Hamas convinced the people they could bring law, justice and rid the state of political fat cats, and worthless pundits. A shadow government. Israel prob doesn't like Hamas because obviosuly there are some violent factions and they are a proxy army backed by a neighboring country wanting to add it's sphere of influence countering Israel's.

Politics, religion and Angelina Jolie's DSLs should never be topic in a forum. Okay well maybe the last one.

This forum is the paddock, where "anything goes".

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Be less trigger happy, more restrained, and abide by International Law like the vast majority of the British army manage to do the majority of the time, when severely provoked.

So, you think that when rockets are lobbed into Israel by the Palestinians, the Israelis should show some restraint, maybe invite them over for dinner. I'm not on the dark side, the realistic side maybe. If someone hits you, you don't get all kissy huggie with them, you hit them back harder. This isn't a nice world, and it will never be a nice world. Ever since man set foot here there has been fighting, and the will be fighting until the last two men are gone. We don't even get along with all of the people in our own countries, it's delusional to think that world peace and kissy huggie are possible, never was, never will be, but you can keep hoping I guess!

 

[Nick]

If someone hits you, you don't get all kissy huggie with them, you hit them back harder.

Al,

Violence begets violence.

I know of examples were terrorists such as those in the IRA, UDA and ETA have laid down their arms through public pressure disgust and government diplomacy.

I can't think of any cases were the use of violence against them has led to terrorists laying down their arms, maybe you can think of some I have missed.

Regards

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

Violence begets violence.

I know of examples were terrorists such as those in the IRA, UDA and ETA have laid down their arms through public pressure disgust and government diplomacy.

I can't think of any cases were the use of violence against them has led to terrorists laying down their arms, maybe you can think of some I have missed.

Regards

You are so right, so the trick is to make the stupid palestinians stop initiating violence with their attacks. The palestinians have bad palestinians living among them that are starting the trouble. Get rid of those people. You are blaming the Israelis for something that is started by the palestinians and the palestinians have the power to stop! You are saying that the Israelis should somehow be better and rise above retaliation. I really don't understand your reasoning. This isn't la la land, it's the real world.

 

[Nick]

You are so right, so the trick is to make the stupid palestinians stop initiating violence with their attacks. The palestinians have bad palestinians living among them that are starting the trouble. Get rid of those people. You are blaming the Israelis for something that is started by the palestinians and the palestinians have the power to stop! You are saying that the Israelis should somehow be better and rise above retaliation. I really don't understand your reasoning. This isn't la la land, it's the real world.

Al,

You agree, so that must mean you agree with my examples where terrorists laid down their arms through diplomatic peaceful negotiations with Governments and not through force or retaliation by armies.

You give me no examples of were the use of violence against terrorists has led them to lay down their arms.

You still support the use of violence against terrorists in an attempt to lay down their arms, and you don't understand my reasoning?

Unless of course it's just the first bit you agree with if so please can you give me any examples were the use of violence against them has led to terrorists laying down their arms, as I still cannot think of any.

 

[Danny]

Al,

...I know of examples were terrorists such as those in the IRA, UDA and ETA have laid down their arms through public pressure disgust and government diplomacy...

Regards

Can you tell us about those?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

You agree, so that must mean you agree with my examples where terrorists laid down their arms through diplomatic peaceful negotiations with Governments and not through force or retaliation by armies.

You give me no examples of were the use of violence against terrorists has led them to lay down their arms.

You still support the use of violence against terrorists in an attempt to lay down their arms, and you don't understand my reasoning?

Unless of course it's just the first bit you agree with if so please can you give me any examples were the use of violence against them has led to terrorists laying down their arms, as I still cannot think of any.

The people from the countries were the terrorist are from, negotiated correct? I don't see the palestinians negotiating or doing anything to stop the attacks, it is their problem. If they want the Israelis to stop retaliation strikes, they need to control their people. It's not up to the Israelis. Put the blame where it belongs.

 

[Nick]

Can you tell us about those?

Danny,

From the Sunday times


Three more Northern Ireland terrorist groups lay down their arms

David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent

Three Ulster terror groups together responsible for hundreds of deaths during the troubles yesterday laid down their arms hours before the end of a Government amnesty.
The groups, two republican and one loyalist, announced they had completed the process of putting their weapons beyond use within the last 24 hours of the existence of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD).

Gordon Brown announced in the Commons that the South-East Antrim UDA — a splinter group of the Ulster Defence Association, the province’s largest Protestant paramilitary organisation — had decommissioned just completed getting rid of its weapons.

That followed confirmation that the so-called Official IRA, a tiny group out of which the Provisionals sprang in 1970, had also destroyed its guns. The Officials declared a ceasefire in 1972 but is now presumed to have held on to weapons for self-protection.
RELATED LINKS
• UDA paramilitaries 'have destroyed their guns'
• Sinn Féin says 'no turning back' on deal

Earlier in the day the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), another splinter group which murdered the Conservative MP Airey Neave and more than 100 other people, confirmed it had also disarmed, disposing of explosives and firearms. Asked about the murder of Mr Neave, who was Mrs Thatcher’s Northern Ireland spokesman, was killed when a bomb exploded beneath his car in 1979 as he left the House of Commons.


Basque separatists Eta announce ceasefire
Group releases video saying it will not carry out armed actions three years after resuming violent campaign for independence

 

[Nick]

The people from the countries were the terrorist are from, negotiated correct? I don't see the palestinians negotiating or doing anything to stop the attacks, it is their problem. If they want the Israelis to stop retaliation strikes, they need to control their people. It's not up to the Israelis. Put the blame where it belongs.

Al,

Not quite in Ireland it was the government that negotiated with the terrorists.

In 1994, talks between the leaders of the two main Irish nationalist parties in Northern Ireland, John Hume of the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP), and Gerry Adams of Sinn Féin (SF), continued.

In November it was revealed that the British government had also been in talks with the Provisional IRA, although they had long denied it.