Palestinians are all about piece right?

Thanks for that Nick, not clear on the dates or links, but where's the nexus between disarmament and "public disgust" in particular, as well as government dipomacy"?

It does, in one case, mention a government amnesty and deadline for the laying down of arms which suggests more of an ultimatum than diplomacy to me.
 
Thanks for that Nick, not clear on the dates or links, but where's the nexus between disarmament and "public disgust" in particular, as well as government dipomacy"?

It does, in one case, mention a government amnesty and deadline for the laying down of arms which suggests more of an ultimatum than diplomacy to me.

Danny,

The crux of the matter is the laying down of arms came as a result of talks with terrorists by governments not as the result of the use of a swords by governments.

Which is the main point I am trying to make ie "the pen is mightier than the sword".
 
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I don't believe that muslim fundamentalist would ever agree to laying down their arms and stopping violence. Your talking about a different breed of cat.
 
Still not the same, the IRA is not a fanatic religious group like the muslims. I don't think one IRA member ever blew him/her self up. This is different. Maybe there weren't any Irish virgins! You really need that promise of sex to have a successful religious bomber enrollment.
 
Couple of points:
- from my Israeli/American friend who listened to Netanyahu's speech in Hebrew-BB offered the Palestinians the complete west bank (can't believe it included Jerusalem) for recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, and the Palestinians refused the offer.
- As I understand the IRA/UDA etc, they were more concerned about who controlled the guns, drugs, and women rather than any religious zealot orientation, and religion was the wrong way to brand them.

This will shock some of you, but O'Reilly gave a three minute analysis of his appearance on the View last week. He concludes (and says what I said elsewhere in another thread) that if moderate muslims joined with the USA, terrorism would not exist.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4375328/a-view-of-the-view-one-day-later
 
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Still not the same, the IRA is not a fanatic religious group like the muslims. I don't think one IRA member ever blew him/her self up. This is different. Maybe there weren't any Irish virgins! You really need that promise of sex to have a successful religious bomber enrollment.

Al,

Terry Waite spent more time than you or I with terrorists, no mention of sex in what he thought motivated them.

Terry Waite

Despite the fact that he was beaten, tortured, interrogated and left alone in the dark without books, papers or radio for an agonizingly 1,763 days in captivity, almost four years of which were in solitary confinement.", Waite says he harbors no bitterness against his captors.

“I don’t condone violence or terrorist activity of any sort, but I can certainly understand why these young men from Hizbollah did what they did. They have grown up with nothing but war and violence and have been denied their democratic rights all their lives,” he explains.
 
Terry is an exception to the human race and not a true representation of how MOST PEOPLE in the real world think. The very fact that the MUSLIM extremists KILL THEMSELVES gives grounds to ask why you would even bring him up in this thread as the very people that you keep crying that we should lay arms down in order to work on peace with themselves could care less!!!! They have NO RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE and ONLY UNDERSTAND FORCE. As stated before these are a different breed of human we are talking about. Fluffy pillow talk while nice with a woman will not get you anywhere over there (we all know how they treat their women). Oh and notice someone (outside of me) has Finely gotten some other news source and well I have to ask .... What else do you want Israel to offer / do in an attempt to create peace? How about you start to put the blame (sole at the feet of the Palestinians at this point) where it belongs !!!!!!!
 

Keith

Moderator
Terry is an exception to the human race and not a true representation of how MOST PEOPLE in the real world think. The very fact that the MUSLIM extremists KILL THEMSELVES gives grounds to ask why you would even bring him up in this thread as the very people that you keep crying that we should lay arms down in order to work on peace with themselves could care less!!!! They have NO RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE and ONLY UNDERSTAND FORCE. As stated before these are a different breed of human we are talking about. Fluffy pillow talk while nice with a woman will not get you anywhere over there (we all know how they treat their women). Oh and notice someone (outside of me) has Finely gotten some other news source and well I have to ask .... What else do you want Israel to offer / do in an attempt to create peace? How about you start to put the blame (sole at the feet of the Palestinians at this point) where it belongs !!!!!!!

FUK MI Damian, but I do agree with TeRRY myself mate... HATE IS A TERRYble thing and I don't think HE is an EXCEPTION in this WORLD at alL. Sorry AbouT the caps - havinG keyboarD IssUes.

It's a FunNy thinG. A lot of peoPle aSk me if I hated the Guy that shot me down at work, and to be truthful? I am more curious about HIM than hateful, plus I don't even know him (sorry, I do know NoW who is is) How can you logically hate what you do not know unless Hate is a displacement for FEAR?

I do not fear them and I do not hate them but i'd like to understand them a bit more. :)
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Has anyone else noticed a pattern here?

Republicans always 100% right
Democrates aways 100% wrong

Israelis always 100% right
Palestinians always 100% wrong

In the real world nothing is 100%. But there are people on this site who do not live in the real world. This is not a discussion, you are waisting you time!
 
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Has anyone else noticed a pattern here?

Republicans always 100% right
Democrates aways 100% wrong

Israelis always 100% right
Palestinians always 100% wrong

In the real world nothing is 100%. But there are people on this site who do not live in the real world. This is not a discussion, you are waisting you time!

Ah, another constructive comment, go back to sleep.
 
Al,

Terry Waite spent more time than you or I with terrorists, no mention of sex in what he thought motivated them.

Terry Waite

Despite the fact that he was beaten, tortured, interrogated and left alone in the dark without books, papers or radio for an agonizingly 1,763 days in captivity, almost four years of which were in solitary confinement.", Waite says he harbors no bitterness against his captors.

“I don’t condone violence or terrorist activity of any sort, but I can certainly understand why these young men from Hizbollah did what they did. They have grown up with nothing but war and violence and have been denied their democratic rights all their lives,” he explains.

Then it would seem that they are wasting 72 perfectly good virgins. Terry is a far more tolerant person than I. Would it be fair to say that the palestinian terrorists are more driven by religious beliefs? Terry fails to say that they wouldn't know democracy if it smacked them in the face, and they don't have democratic rights!
 
I do not fear them and I do not hate them but i'd like to understand them a bit more. :)

Keith,

Absolutely, it's just when you do look you find so many contradictions it's hard to know which view is right. I have always said I could not believe any religion that finds murder acceptable.

I am very very lucky. I was bought up in a stable supportive family, I had so much to live for, so I often wonder, what could possibly drive a young man to the point where he felt he had nothing worth living for.


One mans view seems to support the Terry Waite view on what drives terrorists, (don't think he works for the BBC) and a bit long but due to my ignorance I have to assume the quotations from the Quran are correct.

So unless someone can show me those quotes from the Quran are not true, it appears pretty clear cut that murder and killing are not, as in the Christian faith, acceptable in Islam.


Islam Does Not Promise 72 Virgins for Martyrs: an explanation

Many adversaries of Islam and those whom have been deprived of the Truth have wrongly and continuously asserted that Islam or the Quran promises 72 virgins to martyrs. This article is a response to such baseless assertion against the message of Islam.
The incorrect assumption that “Islam promises 72 Virgins for Martyrs in Heaven” unfortunately signifies deep misconceptions in the West with regards to Islam. It is a myth repeated so often that has misled many people in accepting it as truth and an evidence of an obviously insane religion.

It is the myth of the 72 virgins
When news of a suicide bombing appears in the headlines, it is automatically assumed that some crazy Arab or Muslim must have sacrificed his earthly life to have gained the erotic and everlasting pleasure from the company of 72 virgins in paradise.

Many people are surprised when told that Islam does not promise 72 virgins, and actually condemns people who commit suicide. No matter how many times it is repeated through the media, it will not changed the fact that such assertion is an absurd lie.

The “virgin” myth has clearly received more than its fair share of publicity due to its hilarity. The image of a lunatic suicide bomber taking his pick from 72 luscious virgins is much more welcoming to today’s masses and their imagination than whether or not it logically and rationally would suffice. At the very least, it makes for a particularly gratifying affirmation for those who would love to see their political gain protected against Islam and within the Islamic countries.

The harsh punishment promised by God for people who commit suicide or murder could not be any clearer than the following verse of the holy Quran, which holds absolute precedence of authority over any other Islamic scripture:

But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily God hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that in rancor and injustice, soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy this it is for God. – Chapter 4 (Surah An-Nisa): Verse 29 – 30

Moreover, Muslims view suicide as “Major Sin” with severe punishment in the hereafter. This is also re-enforced by several authentic Hadiths, or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (s.a), such as the followings:

Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.” (Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445)

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection. (Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73)

The condemnation of Islam towards suicide is so great that it would be unimaginable to think that sex has been promised for its reward.

Where has the 72 virgin myth come from?
So one might ask where such a myth could have sprung from and why the number “72 virgins”?

It comes from an alleged saying attributed to Prophet Muhammad, which has neither been verified nor authenticated. Muslims refer to these dubious sayings as Gharib Hadiths, which mean sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in that they are conveyed by only one narrator.
The dubious hadith of “72 virgins” goes as such:

The Prophet Muhammad was heard as saying: “The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah (a Damascus suburb) to – Sana’a (Yemen)” – Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2562

It is interesting to note that majority of the Muslims outside the western world have not even heard of such saying, which ironically makes the west more aware of it than the Muslim world.

Even considering that such saying exists and is valid, there is no mention of virgins or deserving martyrs. This is a weak narration from an untrustworthy source.
Again, it must be stressed upon that the above saying cannot be verified as authentic due to the fact that there is a discrepancy in its “Sanad”, (or chain of transmitters). As such, Muslims are not required to believe in these Hadith for there is a chance that it may have been fabricated or corrupted along the way.
Even so, as dubious as it may be, nowhere does it mention anything about virgins being rewarded to anyone who commit suicide for any reason. What it does mention however are wives, which scholars have argued, should not even be translated literally for it may convey a metaphorical meaning such as companions.

As mentioned earlier, a convincing majority of Muslims do not believe that such Hadith is authentic, but western media have definitely made hay with it.

Today, the myth of the “72 virgins” is amongst other false arguments against Islam, which is brought forth and kept nourished by those, whose arrogance or ignorance motivates them to prevail against Islam and its spirit of Truth. Political and financial entities have used media sources to twist this alleged saying to suit their fancies and smear Islam with ridicule and humiliation.

So, it leads many uninformed individuals to think that when a Palestinian youth is driven to kill him self in order to destroy Israeli soldiers, it is because he wants to indulge himself in endless heavenly erotica. It is never about the mistreatment by the Israelis, demolishing Palestinian homes, killing their women and childern during the bright of the day or their sleep. It is never about blockading of food and life’s essentials by air, land and sea and it is never about the years of anguish and oppression felt but the people of Palestine

Suicide attack is an act of desperation:
Dr. Robert Pape, an American Political Scientist and a professor of University of Chicago in his book, Dying to Win, proves that suicidal killing is a phenomenon of desperation. After studying all recent suicide attacks around the world, he concludes that in every case and without exception, suicide attacks were response to occupation of an ethnic group.

Although the act of committing suicide in order to kill others should be condemned and criticized, it is perhaps more significant and practical to investigate what truly drives such individuals to do it. Human beings with families and claims to their sovereignty do not just kill themselves.

Very often, we fail to see the real reason behind such desperate acts, yet it is easier for us to believe what we are expected to believe and what is easy for us to believe: the myth of the “72 virgins”.
 
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You may have all heard about Merkel's comments on multi culturalism in Germany. Here are two posts, one from the BBC and one from a conservative US news source:

BBC News - Merkel says German multicultural society has failed
Merkel: Multiculturalism Doesn’t Work | RedState

While I would have agreed that desperation was a great motivator to young Palestinians to commit suicide, but take a look at this Business Week article from 6 July 2005, and Mr. Pape was quoted. The actions are about ridding the Muslim lands of foreign troops.
What Makes Suicide Bombers Tick?

I wanted to put this one up as well, its about the Christians being driven out of Iran by the Shia/Sunni violence:
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/message-iraq-take-our-wealth-leave-us-peace
 
I imagine you'd be slightly pissed off if this happened to you too....

I don't condone violence in any form, but this map points to how these conflicts can happen. Just Google "Israel Land Grab" and see what you get...

And Jim, I do tend to agree with you. It seems that anyone on here who is centrist or in any way liberal seems to hold a more balanced view of the world. Nothing in life is ever 100% (apart from when we peg it) and it would be nice to have a discussion where ground can be given without pride intercepting our thoughts...


579664037_c0b94095fc.jpg



You can't tell me that if the same happened to the land that you lived on for centuries because of some stoooopid divine fucking right, you wouldn't be pissed off right?

C'mon guys, lets be balanced here. ALL the violence we have seen is wrong, from BOTH parties. Just try to understand WHY it has happened.

Graham.
 
From the Daily Telegraph (A right wing UK newspaper, not a namby pamby Liberal rag)...



'Israel behind secret land grab'



By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Published: 12:01AM BST 09 Jul 2007
<!-- COMMENTS DISABLED IN SECTION PROPERTIES -->

Israel has been accused of orchestrating a deliberate land grab in the West Bank by allocating 11 times as much land to Jewish settlements as is needed.

It has also been accused of doing nothing to stop settlers from spilling out of allocated areas and stealing even more land from their Palestinian neighbours.

<!-- BEFORE ACI -->
The twin strands of Israel's land policy in the occupied West Bank is described by Peace Now, a respected Israeli land rights group, as a "deliberate and underhand" policy of expansion.
According to a Peace Now report, the Israeli government has allocated 128,500 acres to settlements, even though only 11,120 acres are currently being used.
The government argues that the allocation takes into consideration the future growth of settlements, although it is unclear where the extra settlers will come from.
Under international law all settlement activity is illegal as the Geneva Convention forbids the development of land by an occupying power.
"There is a pattern of failure to enforce the law on the settlers," said Dror Etkes, one of the report's authors.
"This isn't an accident. It became another tool to achieve the military goals of the occupation, which is to allocate the land and hold it."
The report gathered data on 164 Jewish settlements where a total of 260,000 people currently live, including a number of "wildcat" sites that are illegal under Israeli law.
Even though the settlements have a large surplus of land within their allocated boundaries, the report found that about a third of the building by settlers goes on outside these licensed areas.
"The importance of these spillovers, 70 per cent of which affect private Palestinian holdings, is to demonstrate that there is a deliberate policy of expansion, underhandedly encouraged by the authorities," Mr Etkes said.
The settlement is justified by Right-wing Jews on the grounds that all land west of the Jordan belonged historically to Israel.



So, let's remember guys, there's always two sides to a story....

Oh, and I LOVE that last sentence "The settlement is justified by Right-wing Jews on the grounds that all land west of the Jordan belonged historically to Israel."

Says who? .....Bunch of stupid fucking religious nutters....Oh, hang on, that sounds a bit like the Palestinian extremists....must wash my mouth out with soap and water...
 
C'mon guys, lets be balanced here. ALL the violence we have seen is wrong, from BOTH parties. Just try to understand WHY it has happened.

Graham.

Graham,

I like the cut of your jib.

I have for a while looked up all my sources, so this comes from I believe "The Young Turks" who according to Wikipedia "The Young Turks is a moderate liberal Internet talk show".

So not extremists from the right or left, and what appears to be an attempt to present a balanced view, putting both sides of the story, and in my opinion a very interesting conclusion


YouTube - In Gaza Conflict - Which Side Is Using Human Shields?
 
Just remember that Israel responded to attacks in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Just trying to protect their position.

I have said many times that here in the UK, even those on the right are to the left of the Democrats in the USA, and this was just proven to me.

We have two definitions of balanced, a UK and a US version.
 
In a just and fair world all mankind should be able to live with each other.

Maybe it's time to p.o. the diplomats and bring in the town planners. The idea of mosques, synagogues and churches in the same neighbourhood appeals to me.

Just think how far the mega $$$$ being poured in would go if the people could develop and build those types of towns.
 
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