Last week I was at a Ferrari club track day and was fortunate to get a few rides from members driving a Porsche GT3, Ferrari 355 Challenge car and even a Subaru. The Subaru was nice but the Ferrari and the GT3 stuck like glue and were plenty fast. I was wondering if any forum members can comment from their experiences as to the handling and acceleration of their GT40 versus the Porsche GT3. Thanks in advance.
Porsche GT3 vs GT40
- Thread starter Gregg
- Start date
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
I think the 2004 GT3 has about 380 but weighs in at 3043lbs / 1383kg - so like Joseph, my money would go the 40. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I've heard they are very quick around circuits, but hell - get on a straight and they'll have difficulty in catching the 40...
I've heard they are very quick around circuits, but hell - get on a straight and they'll have difficulty in catching the 40...
Ron Earp
Admin
They are extremely quick, I have been on circuit with the racing versions run in the Cup class and they haul the mail. Fast. But, I think a well sorted and driven 40 would keep with them, you'd just have to be willing to give it the boot. The racing version are, race cars, and as such are somewhat "disposable" and the drivers drive them like race cars. I'd imagine a 370-450hp GT40 that has had the chassis sorted, good brakes, and with a good driver would at least equal them.
The GT40 is not an easy car to drive. Original cars have bad brakes with no Power Assisted, Hard to drive (no power steering) and the ZF shifter is a pain to shift. The aero of the gt40 is not good and will suffer lift at high speed. You can watch John Brice video at the Glen and his encounter with the rail. It will depend on the track long straights will help the 40. Last summer I drove my GT40 at Poconos at a PDA event. I was able to run 2 days and on the second day I was having fun passing most cars. This past weekend I was at the Glen and not much track time due to rain. I improved on my second run but the track was not dry and I was scare to hit the walls. The glen is a very hard track to drive. My ERA GT has much more power, better and bigger tires and much better brakes than the original GT and they are power brakes. My first GT I was down in power and brakes against modern cars at event.
A modern car like the Porsche will eat the gt40 without breaking a sweat. You would need a very good driver on the 40 to beat a haft decent driver on the Porsche. But I rather drive my ERA GT, the sound is music.
A modern car like the Porsche will eat the gt40 without breaking a sweat. You would need a very good driver on the 40 to beat a haft decent driver on the Porsche. But I rather drive my ERA GT, the sound is music.
Some interesting results from the VIR race this weekend compared to the One Lap of America full course VIR event. At the one Lap Buzz/Joel averaged a 2:14 for three laps starting from a standing start and a flying finish. Results Here They were on street tires having driven to the event and Joel had never turned a full course lap at the track besides the one warm up lap. Compared with the fastest GT3 driver turning the fastest lap at a 1:58 shown here
during the VIR Rolex weekend. What tires do the GT3 race cars use? I would guess they would have an advantage having run several laps at the track, etc.
Makes me wonder a bit.
during the VIR Rolex weekend. What tires do the GT3 race cars use? I would guess they would have an advantage having run several laps at the track, etc.
Makes me wonder a bit.
I might be able to tell us in December. Might be getting a GT3 RS.
The standard GT3 is very quick.
I don't think it necessarily has the straight line speed of a 450BHP 40, but in the corners they are very quick indeed.
The GT3 used to hold the production car record around the Nurburgring.
J.P
The standard GT3 is very quick.
I don't think it necessarily has the straight line speed of a 450BHP 40, but in the corners they are very quick indeed.
The GT3 used to hold the production car record around the Nurburgring.
J.P
As an indication, at my local track 3.3 km long, GT3's are about 5 sec slower than F5000's and about 5 sec faster than F Fords. GT3 times are where I am hoping my car will be. GT3's are bloody fast and realistically if you use F5000 as a benchmark maybe a really good, high horsepower 40, well sorted on wide slicks with a good pedaller might deal to a GT3 to the tune of a second or so a lap, but I can't see it being more than that. I would think a roadgoing 40 on road rubber would get dusted by the Porsche regardless of horsepower.
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It will be interesting to do a direct comparison when i finally get hold of mt RF GT40.
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Fun too Tim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Can't wait for the comparison. What's the update on delivery of your RF?
Does anyone have any idea of how either GT3's or GT40's compare to F5000's on other tracks?
Regards
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It will be interesting to do a direct comparison when i finally get hold of mt RF GT40.
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Fun too Tim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Can't wait for the comparison. What's the update on delivery of your RF?
Does anyone have any idea of how either GT3's or GT40's compare to F5000's on other tracks?
Regards
Ron Earp
Admin
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At the one Lap Buzz/Joel averaged a 2:14 for three laps starting from a standing start and a flying finish. Results Here They were on street tires having driven to the event and Joel had never turned a full course lap at the track besides the one warm up lap. Compared with the fastest GT3 driver turning the fastest lap at a 1:58 shown here
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2:14 is good for a course that has not been run before, but the lap record for ITS, the class we race old RX7s, BMW 325is, etc. in is 2:12 - with an excellent driver and well prepped car. So, there is a lot of life left in Buzz's car for sure and lots of time left on the table at VIR. I'd imagine some practice would net him 2 seconds and then a lot of setup work would need be done. But if an ITS car can lap it in 2:12, and lots of others at 2:15, then it surely can perform. Hell, a spec Miata cut a 2:20 there a couple months ago and they'll get faster too!
Ron
At the one Lap Buzz/Joel averaged a 2:14 for three laps starting from a standing start and a flying finish. Results Here They were on street tires having driven to the event and Joel had never turned a full course lap at the track besides the one warm up lap. Compared with the fastest GT3 driver turning the fastest lap at a 1:58 shown here
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2:14 is good for a course that has not been run before, but the lap record for ITS, the class we race old RX7s, BMW 325is, etc. in is 2:12 - with an excellent driver and well prepped car. So, there is a lot of life left in Buzz's car for sure and lots of time left on the table at VIR. I'd imagine some practice would net him 2 seconds and then a lot of setup work would need be done. But if an ITS car can lap it in 2:12, and lots of others at 2:15, then it surely can perform. Hell, a spec Miata cut a 2:20 there a couple months ago and they'll get faster too!
Ron
You may not have noticed that I mentioned a standing start on the start finish line. This is a spot on the track were most cars are cooking in the 125 MPH and much higher range so I expect it made a big difference on lap one. From what I recall being there (but brain is dusty). He was running something like 2:04 on his last lap. We could tell from his in car video. Buzz are you listening?
Ron Earp
Admin
No, I didn't notice! If he had a standing start and ended with 2:04s then he is definitely withing striking range! I think those "street tires" though are DOT race compound Hoosiers though, not much street to them other than a DOT label, but I can't remember what Buzz told me a few months ago. If they are really just street tires, then a lot of the time is right there.
IT is odd they do a standing start since that is not the norm in the US. Makes it difficult to compare lap times between cars then, but I'm sure by lap three he was where he was going to be, except for the practice part since they don't allow much of that and that would make huge improvements.
IT is odd they do a standing start since that is not the norm in the US. Makes it difficult to compare lap times between cars then, but I'm sure by lap three he was where he was going to be, except for the practice part since they don't allow much of that and that would make huge improvements.
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The GT40 is not an easy car to drive.
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The original GT40 was a very easy car to drive according to the reports of the day. Ken Miles was quoted as saying. “When properly set up, this is the easiest car in the world to drive” (Ford GT40 Golden portfolio 1964 -1987) but then went on to say “If not, then it’s awful”. I think that says it all. I’ve even read articles of past Ferrari drivers who test drove GT40s some years later, admitting that if they’d had the opportunity to race one they would have won many more races.
My experience of a GT40 replica on the track (RF40) is limited in that I have only just taken the first few steps toward racing it in a few short track days. My first day out showed promise but not performance, but that was because I had some self inflicted aero and brake bias problems. The second time out, with these problems attended to, the car became impressively stable and very predictable into corners. It was at the pointy end of the results by the end of the day (top 20%) on road tyres against some very fast clubmans, porches and corvettes on sticky tyres. I’m trying not to make too many predictions at this stage because I'm still just tip-toeing around, but I can definitely say that it has enormous potential and is not a difficult car to drive.
As for the heavy(ish) brakes, I find it makes it easier to heel-and-toe.
The GT40 is not an easy car to drive.
[/ QUOTE ]
The original GT40 was a very easy car to drive according to the reports of the day. Ken Miles was quoted as saying. “When properly set up, this is the easiest car in the world to drive” (Ford GT40 Golden portfolio 1964 -1987) but then went on to say “If not, then it’s awful”. I think that says it all. I’ve even read articles of past Ferrari drivers who test drove GT40s some years later, admitting that if they’d had the opportunity to race one they would have won many more races.
My experience of a GT40 replica on the track (RF40) is limited in that I have only just taken the first few steps toward racing it in a few short track days. My first day out showed promise but not performance, but that was because I had some self inflicted aero and brake bias problems. The second time out, with these problems attended to, the car became impressively stable and very predictable into corners. It was at the pointy end of the results by the end of the day (top 20%) on road tyres against some very fast clubmans, porches and corvettes on sticky tyres. I’m trying not to make too many predictions at this stage because I'm still just tip-toeing around, but I can definitely say that it has enormous potential and is not a difficult car to drive.
As for the heavy(ish) brakes, I find it makes it easier to heel-and-toe.
Ron Earp
Admin
Chris,
I would second that about them being easy to drive, at least properly set up cars. I've not written about it or posted video (time!) yet, but I drove Malcolms GT40 at Donnington in the UK this past June. We had around 4-5 hours of track time and, once the rain somewhat stopped and I was comfortable in the car, I found it extremely easy to pickup and drive.
The last two sessions in the car I was feeling confident and felt I was picking the car up quickly as far as on track to driving it well and hard, although I would not since it wasn't my car. Malcolm's steered with either end easily, perfectly in my opinion, and was very predictable. I've driven a few other 40s, but this is the first one on track.
Jose, if yours is hard to drive or unnerving I'd invest a lot of time in chassis setup and getting everything just so, that is the key to going fast in any track car. A GT3 is a fantastic car, but a modern 40 should really have no issues keeping up unless the setup is wrong or the power is way down, or the weight is too high.
Gary, looks like Buzz's times were significantly faster than Dennis Olthoff with the Superformance Coupe. Interesting since Dennis has driven there a fair amount and the Coupe is not exactly brand new to competition events having been around awhile.
R
I would second that about them being easy to drive, at least properly set up cars. I've not written about it or posted video (time!) yet, but I drove Malcolms GT40 at Donnington in the UK this past June. We had around 4-5 hours of track time and, once the rain somewhat stopped and I was comfortable in the car, I found it extremely easy to pickup and drive.
The last two sessions in the car I was feeling confident and felt I was picking the car up quickly as far as on track to driving it well and hard, although I would not since it wasn't my car. Malcolm's steered with either end easily, perfectly in my opinion, and was very predictable. I've driven a few other 40s, but this is the first one on track.
Jose, if yours is hard to drive or unnerving I'd invest a lot of time in chassis setup and getting everything just so, that is the key to going fast in any track car. A GT3 is a fantastic car, but a modern 40 should really have no issues keeping up unless the setup is wrong or the power is way down, or the weight is too high.
Gary, looks like Buzz's times were significantly faster than Dennis Olthoff with the Superformance Coupe. Interesting since Dennis has driven there a fair amount and the Coupe is not exactly brand new to competition events having been around awhile.
R
Ron Earp
Admin
On the contrary, I think comparing the car to modern cars is what it is all about. And, if you look at what some people are building - EFI cars, cockpit adjustable roll bars, so forth and so on I think people want their GT40s to exceed modern supercars. I know I do. Power assist to me doesn't mean a whole lot, every race car I drive is not assisted and my GT40 will not be either. A well done GT40 can equal or best modern cars and I think a number of members on this forum have proven that without a doubt.
Ron
Ron
Thanks for the info and opinions. The Porsche I was in was not a race car but the normal street GT3 with street tires. As I said, I was very impressed. I think a well sorted and higher horsepower 40 would definitely be faster on the straights but the curves are a different matter. Hopefully my car will be finished by the Spring and I can do my own direct comparison. Thanks to all.
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
Yes I tend to agree with Ron, my car is running in amongst GT3s with drivers racing on a National race licence.This means we have all passed tests and must race to maintain this license level.My car is still developing and I don't have anything like the GT3 braking ability yet!!!.Power can be a
confusing thing because torque and throttle response are more meaningful to a track racer like me.
Close ratio gearing will give an advantage to a car that on paper has the same power as another too.
So this is why a Gt40 with 450hp may not necessarily beat a 360hp GT3.When I watch the old Le Mans videos I notice how long it takes for a gear change.I have mastered the ZF to do much quicker changes but it's not a silky smooth light shift, and I'll bet the GT3's is.The finishing order at Sandown when I got on the podium- GT3
Cobra replica
GT40 replica
911RSR
911GT2
TR8
911
911
MGB GT
Lotus 7 replica
GT3
Daytona Cobra replica
TR8
Cobra replica
Datsun 240z
So we are up there and competitive with GT3s allright
Ross
confusing thing because torque and throttle response are more meaningful to a track racer like me.
Close ratio gearing will give an advantage to a car that on paper has the same power as another too.
So this is why a Gt40 with 450hp may not necessarily beat a 360hp GT3.When I watch the old Le Mans videos I notice how long it takes for a gear change.I have mastered the ZF to do much quicker changes but it's not a silky smooth light shift, and I'll bet the GT3's is.The finishing order at Sandown when I got on the podium- GT3
Cobra replica
GT40 replica
911RSR
911GT2
TR8
911
911
MGB GT
Lotus 7 replica
GT3
Daytona Cobra replica
TR8
Cobra replica
Datsun 240z
So we are up there and competitive with GT3s allright
Ross
Ron Earp
Admin
Ross, good job! I also like the fact that two, and soon three, cars I race are doing well - the TR8 and 240/260z, and hope my GT40. It is all about attention to detail, you can make anything perform and handle if you take your time and do it right. I love the look on Porsche owners as you rip by them on the club days in your 30 year old 260z and they are wondering how that happens when they have you by 100hp easy and much larger brakes/tires. Attention to detail - or at least, more time building brake ducts, tuining engines, setting up suspenion, and making things work than waxing your car in the sun!
Hi Ron. I am sure that the tires that were used by Buzz were high end Z rated street tires. I believe they were Mich. Pilot Sports (same as I have). They drove the same set in all competitions and between tracks with about 5000 miles on them total. His car has nice power but is not ridiculous.
The standing start is used to be able to get all cars through in a reasonable time. What they do is group you with cars of your speed. Then a group of ~ 6 cars leave the pits and get a warm up lap following each other. They stop in line at the S/F line on the track (not pits). They then start them in ~ 10 - 20 second intervals and they do there three laps hopefully without catching one another. The finish is through a flying pass at the S/F line. The fourth lap is cooldown where the let the next group out. At VIR the were able to run ~100 cars through 3 rounds of competition and over in the afternoon.
The standing start is used to be able to get all cars through in a reasonable time. What they do is group you with cars of your speed. Then a group of ~ 6 cars leave the pits and get a warm up lap following each other. They stop in line at the S/F line on the track (not pits). They then start them in ~ 10 - 20 second intervals and they do there three laps hopefully without catching one another. The finish is through a flying pass at the S/F line. The fourth lap is cooldown where the let the next group out. At VIR the were able to run ~100 cars through 3 rounds of competition and over in the afternoon.
