I was talking to the guys at powerhaus II about ordering a system to pressure cool / lube the my g50. They told me about a new system they are doing (not ready yet) where you dont need an external manifold anymore, it is all internal. And you only need to make 2 holes in the case, 1 pressure and 1 return. They also highly recomend this setup to lube inverted trannys. No idea on price yet, but for anyone who was uncomfortable drilling a ton of holes in their transmission, it should help ease their mind.
Porsche transmission oil coolers
- Thread starter Eric
- Start date
Eric,
That's great news!
Any idea on how the system manages to oil 5 gears
and a R & P with only one pressure inlet?
Please keep us posted on any further developments.
Bill
That's great news!
Any idea on how the system manages to oil 5 gears
and a R & P with only one pressure inlet?
Please keep us posted on any further developments.
Bill
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Can't wait to hear more!!!
Lynn
Keep the greasy side down
Lynn
Keep the greasy side down
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
I just got an email back from Roger Brown, from in response to my question on the availability of the new oiling system for G50 series transaxles:
"Indeed-we are currently working on a new internal oiling system (spray bar type) which will allow for additional
lubrication for the gears and ring and pinion for the G50's. This requires professional installation (preferably by us), remote cooler, lines, filter and pump with only 2 provisions needed for suction and return on the gearbox housing. The price for the system is typically incorporated with the
rebuild of the gearbox. If your box only needs the minimum requirements (main bearings, synchros, gaskets and hardware) and the oiling system, price would be $2825 parts and labor not including shipping or exterior components of the oiling system"
He then goes on to say that those components would include the cooler core at around $150. A pump is needed and he quotes a Tilton 12V for $295. Although, I swear, Pegasus has the exact pump for $199.49 - part no. 1239. And, of course, you'd have to have fittings and lines and perhaps a temp sender. If you really wanted to go all out, you might want to put in a temp switch to only have the 12V pump run when needed.
Here is the Tilton pump
"Indeed-we are currently working on a new internal oiling system (spray bar type) which will allow for additional
lubrication for the gears and ring and pinion for the G50's. This requires professional installation (preferably by us), remote cooler, lines, filter and pump with only 2 provisions needed for suction and return on the gearbox housing. The price for the system is typically incorporated with the
rebuild of the gearbox. If your box only needs the minimum requirements (main bearings, synchros, gaskets and hardware) and the oiling system, price would be $2825 parts and labor not including shipping or exterior components of the oiling system"
He then goes on to say that those components would include the cooler core at around $150. A pump is needed and he quotes a Tilton 12V for $295. Although, I swear, Pegasus has the exact pump for $199.49 - part no. 1239. And, of course, you'd have to have fittings and lines and perhaps a temp sender. If you really wanted to go all out, you might want to put in a temp switch to only have the 12V pump run when needed.
Here is the Tilton pump
I know the synchros are $850 and the gasket kit $65, i bet labour is around $1000 and bearings and other hardware maybe $500? So i guess i will be paying somewhere in the neighbourhood of $500 for the cooling bar. Cheaper than a new tranny. I received my new first gear from them the other day, very nice. Cant wait to get the rest of this stuff and finish this thing.
The picture of "the old setup" looks a lot like Rick Merz's unit in his GTD.
Bill
Bill
Talked to PowerhausII again, they are a liitle confused what/how to sell this spray setup as they have never sold one without a tranny rebuild. So they are trying to get some instructions together and apparently it requires some mill work to fit. He did say the tranny needs to be 100% gutted in order to do this, which isnt bad, just make sure you have a very clean,, uncluttered work space that will make it easy to find one of the 100 or so balls and springs that are in there. I will try and post a how-to when it shows.
Got some prices and some instructions.
Spray bar $250
They sold me a tilton pump for $202.50. Not sure if these are standard pricing or not, i just spent about $3200 there on parts so maybe a bit of a deal i would hope.
When i get the parts and start to install, i will post in the diy section.
Spray bar $250
They sold me a tilton pump for $202.50. Not sure if these are standard pricing or not, i just spent about $3200 there on parts so maybe a bit of a deal i would hope.
When i get the parts and start to install, i will post in the diy section.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
I was prompted by the listing of a ZF LSD on eBay to come to some sort of decision on a lube/cooling system for the G50/50. First, I would like to thank Bill and Chuck for insights, ideas and being good listeners!
One of the first decisions was Torsen or clutch style LSD. When the ZF LSD didn't reach the reserve and closed, I got an email with the offer of a Torsen style Porsche diff. Thanks to Steve at Rennsport I was able to determine that Porsche did indeed sell these for a short period of time for 944/968s, but no longer, only ZFs stocked now. The question still remained should I go with one or the other style. [FYI: Quaife sells Torsen/torque sensing units, Guard Transmission sells both (and lets the customer work out which for him/herself) and ZF makes the clutch style.] Bottom line - our cars are right on the line and, depending on your use and preference, either one can be used quite successfully. Keep in mind that the ZF can be adjusted from 40-80% limited slip as well. I decided to stay with the ZF that is in the tranny and spend my money else where. Which is the perfect segway into the the other decision: to spray bar or not too spray bar? That is the question.
Again, to a large extent it depends (you knew that was coming, right?) For me and, I am guessing, for most people, the most frequent use of a GT40 replica is street driving with occasional track days and infrequent, if ever, racing in anger. Even with substantial horsepower, this kind of use doesn't easily justify going the pressurized spray bar route. Now if you take long trips at autobahn speeds on a regular basis or start hard racing in events over an hour in duration, a spray bar starts becoming easier to justify. An external cooler is easier to justify as someone with good mechanical abilities (or a friend with them) and the proper tools, can do this in DIY mode.
Now all I have to do is wait for Eric to post his cooling/lube system install article in the DIY section, so I can steal his in/out plumbing locations on the transaxle.
Regards,
Lynn
One of the first decisions was Torsen or clutch style LSD. When the ZF LSD didn't reach the reserve and closed, I got an email with the offer of a Torsen style Porsche diff. Thanks to Steve at Rennsport I was able to determine that Porsche did indeed sell these for a short period of time for 944/968s, but no longer, only ZFs stocked now. The question still remained should I go with one or the other style. [FYI: Quaife sells Torsen/torque sensing units, Guard Transmission sells both (and lets the customer work out which for him/herself) and ZF makes the clutch style.] Bottom line - our cars are right on the line and, depending on your use and preference, either one can be used quite successfully. Keep in mind that the ZF can be adjusted from 40-80% limited slip as well. I decided to stay with the ZF that is in the tranny and spend my money else where. Which is the perfect segway into the the other decision: to spray bar or not too spray bar? That is the question.
Again, to a large extent it depends (you knew that was coming, right?) For me and, I am guessing, for most people, the most frequent use of a GT40 replica is street driving with occasional track days and infrequent, if ever, racing in anger. Even with substantial horsepower, this kind of use doesn't easily justify going the pressurized spray bar route. Now if you take long trips at autobahn speeds on a regular basis or start hard racing in events over an hour in duration, a spray bar starts becoming easier to justify. An external cooler is easier to justify as someone with good mechanical abilities (or a friend with them) and the proper tools, can do this in DIY mode.
Now all I have to do is wait for Eric to post his cooling/lube system install article in the DIY section, so I can steal his in/out plumbing locations on the transaxle.
Regards,
Lynn
Sorry Lynn, it has been a while, i havent accomplished alot because my milling machine has been busy with other jobs so the tranny is on hold for a bit. I did get some instructions from powerhaus II that i can email to someone if they like, but you do need to take the transmission all the way apart, including separating the bearing plate from the shafts (you need to grind some metal away in 1 corner. I am hoping that by the end of the month, i will have something to show.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
No problem Eric; trust me, you aren't holding me up. I appreciate the doc you sent me. It gives me a lot better feel for the insides of the G50 type transaxle. The fact that your application has the gearbox in its normal orientation, doesn't lend itself to helping me with locating my pump supply and return lines though 
.
However, looking at the old style photos you supplied and the photos that Rick Mertz supplied I am wondering if your pump supply location couldn't be used for my return and to direct the return towards the R&P? I don't think you can really see where that boss enters the diff cavity in the pic above and Rick doesn't use it the boss for his return. His line enters below the boss, nearer the midline of the diff section. I guess the main reason I am interested in using the boss is that it is there to provide an entry to the inards. I don’t think I will be able to wrap a sprayer around the pinion gear like the new set up does; that is really nice.
As far as the pump supply point goes, I am torn between using the location shown in the old setup above or just using the port that was the vent on the midline. Using the midline location would certainly give the fitting more meat to engage with. The other location is more protected be being nestled down between the two ribs. The bell housing makes either location fairly well protected though. I can’t really tell from Rick’s photos exactly where his supply line is coming from. I like the way he has the pump tucked down in there beside the trannie. Hey Rick, are both sets of coils in the back for the transaxle or is the one on the driver’s side for engine oil? They both look like the same Mocal heat exchanger I am using for engine oil; it is located in the airstream from the driver’s side door scoop.
I haven’t totally given up on putting oil on the gear sets yet. Based on Rick’s photos and the old style photo, I could still use the external technique. What I am wondering is, “when I drill the case, can I get a vacuum hose to the holes, to remove shavings, from the nose end without tearing down the transaxle?” I haven’t taken the final cover off to know and can’t really tell from these photos. The first photo above, which I think is the bulkhead one would see when the nose cover is taken off, doesn’t make it look promising. Opinions? If I can’t put sprayers in without making sure I don’t contaminate the case with metal bits, I’ll just leave them off. Mike Starling, have you torn your transaxle down enough to tell? I guess you were the lucky duck by having your spray system already in place!
Bye the way, I ordered my pump today. A guy had built an entire diff cooler system a while back, presumably for a Mustang road race car, and then never put it on. I just bought his pump though (one of the typical Tilton/Mocal types) and got it at a decent price for an unused pre-owned part. I’ve got check valves (AN-8 inline) and 3 different sets of coils to chose from, but am not sure how to filter the flow. Would one of the inline engine oil screens work? I used inline K&N billet aluminum fuel filters with SS screens; what about something like that? What have you guys used?
. However, looking at the old style photos you supplied and the photos that Rick Mertz supplied I am wondering if your pump supply location couldn't be used for my return and to direct the return towards the R&P? I don't think you can really see where that boss enters the diff cavity in the pic above and Rick doesn't use it the boss for his return. His line enters below the boss, nearer the midline of the diff section. I guess the main reason I am interested in using the boss is that it is there to provide an entry to the inards. I don’t think I will be able to wrap a sprayer around the pinion gear like the new set up does; that is really nice.
As far as the pump supply point goes, I am torn between using the location shown in the old setup above or just using the port that was the vent on the midline. Using the midline location would certainly give the fitting more meat to engage with. The other location is more protected be being nestled down between the two ribs. The bell housing makes either location fairly well protected though. I can’t really tell from Rick’s photos exactly where his supply line is coming from. I like the way he has the pump tucked down in there beside the trannie. Hey Rick, are both sets of coils in the back for the transaxle or is the one on the driver’s side for engine oil? They both look like the same Mocal heat exchanger I am using for engine oil; it is located in the airstream from the driver’s side door scoop.
I haven’t totally given up on putting oil on the gear sets yet. Based on Rick’s photos and the old style photo, I could still use the external technique. What I am wondering is, “when I drill the case, can I get a vacuum hose to the holes, to remove shavings, from the nose end without tearing down the transaxle?” I haven’t taken the final cover off to know and can’t really tell from these photos. The first photo above, which I think is the bulkhead one would see when the nose cover is taken off, doesn’t make it look promising. Opinions? If I can’t put sprayers in without making sure I don’t contaminate the case with metal bits, I’ll just leave them off. Mike Starling, have you torn your transaxle down enough to tell? I guess you were the lucky duck by having your spray system already in place!
Bye the way, I ordered my pump today. A guy had built an entire diff cooler system a while back, presumably for a Mustang road race car, and then never put it on. I just bought his pump though (one of the typical Tilton/Mocal types) and got it at a decent price for an unused pre-owned part. I’ve got check valves (AN-8 inline) and 3 different sets of coils to chose from, but am not sure how to filter the flow. Would one of the inline engine oil screens work? I used inline K&N billet aluminum fuel filters with SS screens; what about something like that? What have you guys used?
Sorry Lynn, i am a little confused but i think it is because i didnt tell you everything. My tranny is upside down, going in my 40. Those pics are of a 4wd with a hollow shaft, thats what you see sqirting out onto the pinion, should have said ignore that part. In the new system photo up top, the 3/8 npt is pressure feed to the spray bar, you need to drill in and meet a hole on the insode (which needs to me milled out to 1/2 "). For the return, look at the old system photo, the AN fitting sitting on top is actually the bottom, that is the return PHII said to use. If you do decide to do the external setup.the first 2 cases are easy to get off, then everything is attached to the bellhousing still, it gets ugly afterr that but is not too crazy. It would be worth it to pull those 2 cases i think, or grease the hell out of your drill and taps, use a vaccuum, do it all upside down, and cross your fingers.
I can send you the instructions for the tranny if you like.
I can send you the instructions for the tranny if you like.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
OK, I got you Eric. I understand the 3/8 NPT port and this will not be useable to me at all. And I re-read the Word doc where you said the boss was used for non-inverted applicaions and since I thought this depicted the setup you were using, I assumed yours was non-inverted. So you will not be using the boss for the sump line taking the oil to the pump either: and this line is what you are referring to as the return line, right? The big blue AN fitting is used to take oil to the pump. Did PHII say why they wouldn't use the former vent for this? I wonder if they figure you need a drain anyway, so use it for that.
Back to the boss on the side of the diff. What does it look like on the inside? Do you think it would be possible to put a pressure line through it with some sort of tubing bent to put the oil on the R&P? Is the view from the point on the inside of the diff housing adjacent to the boss, open to the R&P? See what I am thinking? The default setup will be a line from big blue AN fitting to the cooler coil-> to the pump -> back to tranny via tubing aimed at the R&P.
Its late and my eyes are crossing. We'll talk more about this another time. Thanks for all the guidance thus far.
Lynn
Back to the boss on the side of the diff. What does it look like on the inside? Do you think it would be possible to put a pressure line through it with some sort of tubing bent to put the oil on the R&P? Is the view from the point on the inside of the diff housing adjacent to the boss, open to the R&P? See what I am thinking? The default setup will be a line from big blue AN fitting to the cooler coil-> to the pump -> back to tranny via tubing aimed at the R&P.
Its late and my eyes are crossing. We'll talk more about this another time. Thanks for all the guidance thus far.
Lynn
Ok, had a look at my tranny which is all in peices. If all you plan to do is shoot the diff with oil, that boss points basically right at the ring and pinion mesh point allmost pefectly. If, again, you are just doing the ring and pinion, then it is very simple to pop the side cover off and drop the diff out of the thing,, do your drilling and then re-assemble. The whole internal spraybar setup however, is nice because it will lube every single gear, for some reason, even the reverse idler gets a shot, as well as the ring and pinion. It is just a bit more work to do. If you are feeling very lucky, you could just take the first 2 covers off, use a die ginder, magnets, vacuum and some rags to keep the shaving away, grind out the center plate and install the tube that way. The only other part that needs any work is the end cover, and it is off.
As for the suction line to the pump, not sure why they said to use the place in the pic above, i just figured, like you, that it became the drain instead.
Also, not sure if i mentioned this, and you guys probably already know, but the plumbing they said to do like this...
transmission suction line ----> cooler----->pump ---->spraybar.
As for the suction line to the pump, not sure why they said to use the place in the pic above, i just figured, like you, that it became the drain instead.
Also, not sure if i mentioned this, and you guys probably already know, but the plumbing they said to do like this...
transmission suction line ----> cooler----->pump ---->spraybar.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
The main reason for having the pump after the cooler is because the pump, if memory serves me-not a forgone conclusion by any means, has a max. fluid temp of 180°F. It is just good practice to cool the fluid before doing anything with it except maybe filtering. Even if the pump could handle more temp., cooling first will make it last longer for sure. Even thought these pumps are self priming, I do plan to check valve the system. If I can work it out without to much hassel, I am trying to include a reservoir to increase the amount of oil in the system also.
I am encouraged by your thoughts on a full spraybar. The main reason for spraying the gears, to me, is because, in the inverted position, the gears are pushing on one another backwards from the way they were designed to work. I have to think the resulting increased friction will generate more heat. And more heat is bad, bad! (said ala Dana Garvey as George Bush)
Regards,
Lynn
I am encouraged by your thoughts on a full spraybar. The main reason for spraying the gears, to me, is because, in the inverted position, the gears are pushing on one another backwards from the way they were designed to work. I have to think the resulting increased friction will generate more heat. And more heat is bad, bad! (said ala Dana Garvey as George Bush)
Regards,
Lynn
