Race Engine Advice Please!

[Mark Ferrari]

Guys - I need some help!
I'm finishing my Rf40 this year which will be first registered with a standard engine, then used for a few years as a race-only car for road circuits with a second purpose built race engine. I don't know exactly what components the race engine should have to be right for my car and the type of racing I'll be doing, so I need some input that I'm heading in the right direction.
I will be probably using a new ZF 5 speed, 8 barrel fuel injection, and Motec. It needs to run on 98 Octane premium unleaded.
The engine needs to make not much more than 500HP, maybe low 400's torque, and make power to around 7500RPM? Probably an aluminium block if these are reliable?
I've already asked one of the bigger race engine builders for an engine to suit and this is what they came up with.

Basic Engine 347 ci Fully Machined Dart Aluminum Block, Scat 4340 forged Crankshaft, Scat H-Beam Rods, 10:1 JE Pistons, Plasma Moly Rings, Federal Mogul Bearings, Double Roller Timing Set, Front Cover, Melling Oil Pump, Oil Pump Drive, Oil Filter Insert, Timing Pointer, BHJ SFI Approved Damper, ARP Fasteners, Fel Pro Gaskets, Balanced, Blueprinted & Assembled

Camshaft Comp Cams Solid Roller 252/262 duration, .576 lift

Cylinder Heads AFR 185’s (All CNC work done in house)

Valve Train Scorpion Roller Rockers, Comp Cams Pushrods, Crower Solid Roller Lifters

Oil Pan Aviaid or Armando Aluminum

Dyno Test The engine will be dyno tested & tuned. We will provide test results.

I think this engine is too much HP and torque suit my purpose. I did specify around 500Hp and not monster torque, but when I rang them about this engines performance, they said she'll make 630HP at 6200RPM and 600 torque!

Can anyone recommend an engine builder who does excellent work with race engines and who can design an engine to suit a specific purpose and car? And who'll bother listening to their client?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Ron Earp]

This is what I had done for my RF, which of course never came, thus the motor is going in the Lola. I think it capable of extended track work.

342 inch SB Ford
AFR 185 heads, custom CNC porting job
11.5:1 Compression, Custom forged pistons
Forged crank, now zero balanced
Forged Eagle H beam rods
DDS main support and windage tray with crank scraper
Comp Cam cam Specs:
0.676" lift IN, 0.673" lift EX
Duration at 0.020 287 IN 295EX
Timing @ 0.050" IN Open 18 BTDC Close BTDC 58
Timing @ 0.050" EX Open 61 BTDC Close BTDC 21
110 Lobe separation
Comp Cam Valve springs and titanium retainers, 600lb open, 260lb seat
Jesel Comp Series Shaft rockers
Jesel Pushrods
Jesel Keyway solid roller lifters
Ferrea Hollow Stem Intake and Exhaust Valves, 2.02/1.60
Total Seal rings
ARP 1/2" head studs, ARP hardware throughout motor
ACL 3/4 grove race main bearings

Now I fear after having a year of SCCA wheel to wheel racing and track work under my belt, I think the engine is too much. So, I might be detuning it for the Lola. I think around 350-400 tops would be great for a 2000lb, or less, Lola track toy or a GT40 weighing a little more. I went for high revving power and little torque, or as little as it'd make, so as to fit with the Audi/Getrag steep transaxle. If you are using a ZF you might not want that much high end power as the ZFs are lazy, or at least the ones I've driven in Panteras, fairly tall ratios. You might need the torque and mid-range power, especially if you plan your RF to be on the heavy side.

R

Ron

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

All good advice,-- to make a Ford "go", use every expensive after market part there is ,so that it just looks like a SBF.
For pump gas, no more than 10:1 comp. due to detonation issues IMHO.
For circuit work, a good torque number is required.Then seriously look at brakes,suspension geometry,shockers and springs else that big shiney powerful motor is gonna be wasted

 

[Ron Earp]

I agree with you but on the detonation. There are lots of SB Fords, not to mention huge numbers of production engines, that run 11.1 and higher on pump gas - highest I've recently seen was 11.5:1 in BMW's S54 M engine - and the engine will take a little more timing than stock for a little more power and no detonation. Be conservative on getting her running, jetting, total advance, and work up to where it needs to be one timing. As long as it runs cool, timing is not out of whack, more than likely you'll be good to go. Modern aluminum heads are much more tolerant of compression/timing than iron heads of old where so many folks base their 10:1 ratio on.

R

 

[Mark Worthington]

It sounds like the engine they specified would be a great motor, but perhaps too much power. Therefore, why don't you just go with lower displacement like a 306?

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Guess I'm too conservative Ron,I think the traditional SBF head combustion chambers are prone to hot spots at full noise where as modern motors such as BMW have more efficient combustion chambers for a better burn front,flow,multi valve and all.
Mark Fer, Ferr... ttt .If you're racing in Melb.--probably with Ross Nicols group then check what the front running Porsches are doing as a yard stick for power and handling cos' them you gotta beat.

Good luck

 

[Mark Ferrari]

Thanks for the advice.
The horsepower and torque of the engine will be more determined by the ability of the drive train to handle the power rather than what the Porches are putting out. I suppose I want the maximum HP and torque that the ZF can handle while still being reliable and able to take race starts, whatever those figures are.
As to whether it should be 306, 331, 347 etc. I have no idea. That's why I need the advice of a good engine builder.
Who built your engine Ron?
Anybody else know any excellent engine builders?

 

[Ross Nicol]

The front running Porsche in our group has 700hp reportedly it is illegal as GT2
came out with 2 small hairdryers and this one has one massive one.He has attracted the officials attention and I for one hope he will be forced into line.Forced inducion cars are supposed to run original manifolds. Before my motor decided to munch on a few stones I went down the Sandown straight neck and neck with a front running 911. This indicates to me I have a long way to go with handling and driver ability, as my lap times are way off his. also indicates that my 350-400 hp propels this car ok.Having said that 500hp would be good and that acceleration should be good for getting in front of a competitor when required.I have entered for Phillip Island meeting on 10th and 11th of June, hope I have the car back together.

Ross

 

[Malcolm]

You need to buy JP's engine that Dave Milham made in the UK. That would suit your needs nicely but I think it has been sold or broken up for parts already. If you lived in the UK Dave Milham would get my vote as an engine builder as would Paul Thompson of Smart Tech as he has massive experience of fitting MOtec to Ford V8s. Roy and Paul have made Roy's engine go over 500bhp to good effect. But it is not a cheap and simple route to take. To me reliability is all important so I tend not to go over 400 bhp with my engine.

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Plenty reputable engine gurus in SE Queensland most locked into V8 super car programs -- whats your budget ?? / lead time etc.

400 hp long rod 302ci in front of a G50 Porsche trans and spend heaps on the important handling things --is my suggestion.

Nothing looks worse than someone driving an overpowered jelly

 

[Jac Mac]

If you are going to splash out the $ for the alloy block get the 4.125 bore version. This combined with the 3.25 "crank /5.400"rod would give you 347 cu in and a happier rod ratio. Then come back on your cam spec's to spread the rev range and soften up the torque to make life easier on that precious trans. This will also make the car easier to drive.When you build the motor take advantage of the larger bore to further unshroud the combustion chambers adjacent to the cylinder wall and deepen the valve pockets in the pistons to allow for a camshaft upgrade at a later date if you feel you need it without having to go thru a piston change/ rebalance scenario. If you are gonna foot it with those porsches like Ross mentioned you will need some real good tyres, which will probably mean dry sumping to keep things happy. Dont get to carried away with making big HP, work on the braking and handling and traction of the car.
Cheers Jack.

 

[Mark Ferrari]

Good info JacMac. Always smart to be able to easily build in more power if needed at a later date - also to over build and run slightly detuned for reliability.
I am having discussions with a V8 Supercar builder locally, but I suspect will cost me a lot more to get built here rather than in the States, even with shipping etc. When the builder mentioned that for the Supercar they start with a cast iron block for AUD$4,500 then spend AUD$13,000 just to lighten it, and a complete engine is over AUD$100,000, it kind of scared me a little! When I mentioned my budget, he kind of said, 'Oh'. But my budget would easily cover the engined spec'd out in the earlier post. I understand I'm not really comparing apples with apples, but most automotive things seem to be cheaper in the States. Hence my desire to talk to some well recommended builders over there!! So please don't be shy. Give me some recommendations!
By the way, I am and will be spending appropriate time and resources on all the other aspects of the car to help it to go fast, but these I can do here in Aussie.
Thanks.

 

[Ron Earp]

Flatchat, I think you are right with the traditional SB Ford chambers - but I think you'll find late model aftermarket heads are quite different and tolerate a lot more compression and timing than normal Ford factory designs. But conseravative isn't a bad thing and the power differences are not that great between 10 to 1 and 12 to 1, so staying lower is the safer bet.

Mark, I used a local Ford guy in my hometown who builds engines for the circle track guys and has won a few local engine building contests. His name is Billy Hauser and he is a local sort of fellow, although I don't think he'd mind doing something overseas. However, Keith Craft, who advertises on this forum, is known in the US and UK for Ford engines and a few forum members have used his motors. He does excellent work and if you were interested in working with someone in the US would be on my short list to call. His website is http://www.keithcraft.com/

I'd met Malcolm's engine guy in the UK who did JPs engine (I think it was the same fellow) and liked him a lot, he know his stuff. However, over the years I've learned what prices for Ford engines are in the UK and Australia and have been, well, shocked - they are much cheaper over here than outside the US. Really shouldn't be like this in a global economy but there it is.

 

[Jac Mac]

Mark, I am from the southern end of NZ and do all my own stuff, so cannot help with AU/US engine builders etc. The Dart blocks are very well made and dont require the corrective action like main/cam tunnel realignment,deck surface machine work that factory blocks require. This means that you really need the block in your own hands to measure up and work out the actual *true* compression height you will need to specify when you order your crank/rods/pistons. There are a few other tips specific to the block but they are a bit long winded to post here. Cheers Jack.

 

[Mark Ferrari]

JacMac,
Do you know of any disadvantages of having an aluminium block? An engine builder said that I would need to check torque settings more often due to more expansion/contraction of the aluminium, but didn't mention anything else. Are they reliable long term for racing use - ie. with ~500HP and 7500 RPM?
Thanks for the input.

 

[Jac Mac]

Mark, I would not call them disadvantages,but there are several things that are critical when running alloy blocks as follows; Avoid any overheating issues like the plague both oil and water. Stay conservative on ign timing and fuel mixture, I know people will tell you that alloy is better at heat transfer (and it is) but it is more likely to suffer damage from alteration of the heat treatment and detonation if it is allowed to exceed normal limits. Yes you will have to retorque heads at valve lash time but this should be part of a preventative maintanance check along with a look at valve train etc post race. When you say long term do you mean long distance race's or a couple of seasons of say 15 lap sprint races. If its the latter then it will be ideal. I have not been involved with any long distance applications. Another thing about the 4.125" block is nobody seems to make a head gasket that is compatible with the AFR head, I have always had them made here in NZ but on an as reqd basis.
Cheers Jack

 

http://www.kuntzandcompany.com/

Used to be in partner ship with Keith Craft.

 

[Paul W]

Quite an unfortunate name for a company !

 

[Sandy]

JacMac,
Do you know of any disadvantages of having an aluminium block? An engine builder said that I would need to check torque settings more often due to more expansion/contraction of the aluminium, but didn't mention anything else. Are they reliable long term for racing use - ie. with ~500HP and 7500 RPM?
Thanks for the input.

I have a Ford SVO aluminum block in my 65' mustang running in the 560/7000 hp range. The motor has been in the car for a couple of years and I have only had problem with it from overrevving and kissing a valve in the piston. I run it at the open track days in Willowsprings, CA on both tracks, it generally runs on the hot side due to small radiator and desert like track (220F) and other then operator error it works well. The head gaskets are tricky to get right as said earlier, it took a couple before the engine builder got it right. Felpro makes one for the smaller bore SVO blocks, and I think Cometic makes one for the 4.125 that is on the other aluminum block that is going into the RCR40 (Keith Craft built that motor). That one cranked out 618hp/7500, 600hp/8000. This motor was built on the Dart Aluminum block.

Will see how long that one lasts

Sandy

 

[Jac Mac]

Hi Guys, Just so everyone is up to speed with the head gasket scene. The problem relates to the AFR head which has a curved coolant passage machined on the side nearest the pushrods etc. When used on 4.125 bore applications the only gaskets available were Felpro( svo cleveland application) and Cometic. The Felpro did not have enough material to properly seal and the Cometic had embossed ridges which crossed the areas and therefore allowed coolant to track at a later date. Neither company were very helpful when informed of the problem ,hence we had to go" Made in NZ".Cheers Jack