Roll over bars

[Ron Earp]

Be careful throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I strongly feel that if you are going to be wheel to wheel racing a properly designed, installed, and used cage will result in your car being far safer than one without a cage. Used is the key word here:

*Used with a helmet
*Used with a halo seat to prevent your head from hitting the cage in a side impact
*Used with proper harness and restraint so your body doesn't come in contact with the cage
*Used with H&N restraint
*Used with padding on the cage anywhere you could possibly come in contact with it

Using a cage on the street with none of this in place is a bad idea. Heck, I was qualifying this past Saturday morning and, due to the track transition from the infield to the banking and not realizing what was getting ready to happen, hit my head on the inside of my halo seat hard enough to make me think about that for the next lap. And I of course was in full gear, H&R, and only had contact with my cushioned seat halo, way more friendly than a cage.

A race car is safer with a cage. To say a race car is safer without a cage, well, that's nuts. Hell if that's the case we'd be safer without belts, you know, so we can be "thrown clear" of the accident.

 

[Frank Catt]

Ron,Maybe you are right regarding full race situation and with all the other safety features together, but 95% of these cars never see a track, let alone wheel to wheel racing. What worries me is the current trend to try to make road cars look like race cars but without the drivers using helmets or other close contact safety items. As you have said, BUT NEEDS TO BE MORE STRONGLY STATED, this is very dangerous on the street, far more dangerous than the likelyhood of a roll over, and very dangerous in a frontal or side impact situation, as we have seen recently. Taking the front bar away is only partial, most of the injury accidents with head impact are to the side of the head, where it is far more vulnerable.

 

[Ron Earp]

, but 95% of these cars never see a track, let alone wheel to wheel racing. What worries me is the current trend to try to make road cars look like race cars but without the drivers using helmets or other close contact safety items.

Yep, there is the problem - owners not being realistic about what they are going to do with their cars. And that's a sticky problem.

We all want a visually appealing racy car, after all, we're replicating a race car. Five point harness, race rubber, roll bars, fuel cells, fire system, etc. are all part of the package. But if the car isn't going to see a race track then what is the point?

On the other hand, I'm not about to get into a GT40 replica and drive it at track speeds without that sort of safety equipment. I won't do that for the same reason I won't instruct at these various street car track day type events - most of the time all is fine, but when it goes bad it can be very bad. The couple of clubs I belong to are all the time needing instructors for their high performance driving days and like, but I'll be damned if I'll strap in beside some fellow I don't know in a 500hp car with a factory seatbelt. Nope, not gonna do it.

No real solution here other than have a dedicated track car for racing and track use, and to have a street car for street use. And that solution isn't going to satisfy very many people.

 

[DaveM]

Ron I think what we can agree on is different drivers have different levels of safety concern. I raced everything from Formula Atlantics to IMSA GTU cars. Was the full cage of the GTU car safer than the Atlantic? Yes and some racers will not race open wheel cars for that reason.
I think Frank is right that only a very small percentage of replica GT40's will be exclusively track cars. Part time track day use presents a difficult decision. I tend to agree with Frank that a full cage can be a great risk on the street. Perhaps a roll bar behind the bulkhead is a better solution. All us GT40 street drivers assume probably a greater risk of side impact from an SUV. Guess we are willing to take that risk.

 

[Tim Kay]

Not to diminish the obvious points made in this thread regarding street cars with full cage and no brain bucket but here's an interesting option for those who choose a full cage street car (I being one of those):

https://www.rollbarpadding.com/product/id-38

 

[Dave]

So I guess that means no point in wearing a 4 or 5 point harness without a cage as the harness will hold you in when rolling over and that will break your neck? Safety is not as easy as it seems.

 

[Jon Briggs]

I think we need to separate roll over bars and full cages. Roll over bars are usually the minimum needed for race or track day events, and are a sensible precaution I think. Full cages are a different matter.

And just to argue against myself, has anyone actually managed to roll one of these in normal (not full 'Le Mans' race) use?

 

[Chris Duncan]

The best way to treat a GT40 is to drive it like a sport bike. Drive and think like there is no collision protection. Modern cars have come a long way as regards safety. GT40's have virtually none. Roll cage or no roll cage, either way is not safe.

Sad to say it but both these roll bar induced fatalities look like driver error. Specifically driving too fast for the conditions. If you are going to speed on the street very carefully pick the time and the place. Better yet save it for the track where you can wear a helmet and conditions are more controlled.

 

[Tim Kay]

^what he said :thumbsup:

 

[Brisc P.]

Are you allowed to wear a helmet in a street car in the US? What about other countries? That would also be an option - just wear a helmet when driving it.

 

[Pat]

Are you allowed to wear a helmet in a street car in the US? What about other countries? That would also be an option - just wear a helmet when driving it.

...and hope with your helmet on, doors closed and A/C blowing and you hear the other vehicle's horn, police/ambulance siren or train whistle.

Assessing risk you look at two dimensions, probability and seriousness. The probability of needing a full street roll cage is tiny and in my mind not worth the compromise in entry/egress and visibility.
Of course, the safest option is not leave the security of your bedroom.

 

[Larry L.]

...and hope with your helmet on, doors closed and A/C blowing and you hear the other vehicle's horn, police/ambulance siren or train whistle.

Bear in mind there are many deaf people who have driver's licenses and do drive, Pat.

None the less, you're point is well taken...as regards those who can hear. Whereas they normally depend on their hearing for decision making 24/7/365, deaf folks are used to compensating for the lack of it.

'Just my $00.02.

 

[Pat]

Larry, I think you've missed my point. Sadly, those that are hearing impaired don't have a choice about their hearing limitations. A helmet wearer (the point of the post) does.
This isn't about people with disabilities. After commanding two artillery batteries, try to imagine how great my hearing might be... But that's a different topic for a different forum.
My assertion that the risk calculation benefit of wearing a helmet in an enclosed, air conditioned, front roll hoop equipped GT40 replica for routine street driving may be offset by the concomitant losses in hearing and visual situational awareness plus the egress challenges in case of fire the helmet and full roll hoop provide.

 

[Brisc P.]

Larry, I think you've missed my point. Sadly, those that are hearing impaired don't have a choice about their hearing limitations. A helmet wearer (the point of the post) does.
This isn't about people with disabilities. After commanding two artillery batteries, try to imagine how great my hearing might be... But that's a different topic for a different forum.
My assertion that the risk calculation benefit of wearing a helmet in an enclosed, air conditioned, front roll hoop equipped GT40 replica for routine street driving may be offset by the concomitant losses in hearing and visual situational awareness plus the egress challenges in case of fire the helmet and full roll hoop provide.

I think wearing a helmet in a car will give you much better hearing than wearing a helmet on a motorbike. The wind-induced noise is much more than what an AC can do.

Does anybody know whether or not it is actually illegal to wear a helmet driving a car?

 

[Pat]

I think wearing a helmet in a car will give you much better hearing than wearing a helmet on a motorbike. The wind-induced noise is much more than what an AC can do.

Does anybody know whether or not it is actually illegal to wear a helmet driving a car?

Is you field of vision and hearing better with a helmet or not? Are those limitations further impacted by an A pillar roll cage, windows up, A/C on, radio blaring or not? Are those limitations offset by the added safety or not?

Who cares if it's different on a motorcycle or the space shuttle. Maybe the A/C issue is the fact that you normally have windows closed when the A/C is on. So you don't hear what's outside as well. This is far more an issue than the sound of the blowing fan.

In answer to your second question, it probably varies by location. Here in the USA, if a member of law enforcement believes your visibility is restricted, they can ticket you for that. If they think you're acting like a fool, they'll find something else to cite you for.

As for your location, as the police. It may be a really bad idea to drive up to them while wearing a helmet though.

 

[Brisc P.]

When helmets were introduced for motorcycles you found plenty of folks that argued it is not worth the limitations it brings with it.

When seat belts were introduced into the automobile you found plenty of folks that argued it is not worth putting them on.

As far as I remember, FL is one of the few places that was stupid enough to legalize riding motorcycles without wearing helmets after actually introducing them years before. I vividly remember going on a motorcycle trip to the keys years ago and nobody was wearing a helmet except me. They all felt so incredibly cool on their fat boys without a helmet but at the end of the day they were all stupid not wearing a helmet.

Places around the world are forcing people to ride bicycles with helmets on, and it's a smart thing to do. Accident statistics around the world show how stupid it is not to wear a helmet when riding your pushbike.

Will mandatory helmets be introduced into the automobile? Probably! Most likely some smart, small country will be first and others may or may not follow. Maybe not in our lifetimes but it certainly makes sense to do so. Driving a car with a helmet is safer than driving it without a helmet.

I don't think that police will like seeing you wearing a helmet because they will associate that with driving over the speed limit. That is somewhat silly!

 

[Pierre-Louis]

Places around the world are forcing people to ride bicycles with helmets on, and it's a smart thing to do. Accident statistics around the world show how stupid it is not to wear a helmet when riding your pushbike.

This is a larger question about individual responsability. In our old european welfare states, surgery for brain damages is quite entirely paid by public social security, so at the end of the day, it costs to all of us, happy tax payers. I can understand law for mandatory helmets, as I don't wanna pay for other's stupidity.
But the drawback is that individual responsability is a concept now vanished, here. Its always someone's else fault, and especially the government's fault which didn't enact the right legislation in due time (which final goal is to find someone else to pay for you, the insurance, the social security, and s.o. ... or make money with fines to support Social Security :thinking:!)

But in the Land of Plenty, where you have to sell your home to pay for your own surgery and to buy your own wheel chair, it's the ultimate liberty : wearing a helmet or not, being stupid or not, as you're not killing anybody else than you, if you don't wear a helmet driving your bike.

I've always questioned about law made to save people against their own will. Too much legislation for too much things, leads to law's tyranny... Should not the scope of Law be limited to protect each from other..., and not to protect people from themselves ? Security, sometimes liberty's ennemy...

This is probably a thread drift !boomsmile

 

[Larry L.]

Larry, I think you've missed my point.

.
Uhhhh...no...I didn't. In fact, I agreed with it:

None the less, you're point is well taken...as regards those who can hear.

:chug:

 

[Fred W Ballinger]

Does anybody know whether or not it is actually illegal to wear a helmet driving a car?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

As for the case in South Africa, I have on occasion gone on runs with a local group of guys and girls who run 7 style cars. On the open road several of them will wear helmets, particularly those with minimal windscreens. We have never had a problem with the law. Its also done in the UK/Europe, I understand.

If it is compulsory to wear them on a bike, I can't see how they can be illegal in a car. That said I would think you would look a poser wearing one in a closed car, on the road.

Cheers

Fred W B

 

[Randy V]

It's a really good question... I have a couple of friends that are in Law Enforcement and I will get their take on it...