Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

[Pete McCluskey.]

I love you blokes, nothing like never ever being wrong, or conceding that the other persons point may have some veracity. It's all black and white no shades of grey or brown or puce even.
I don't have statistics available but I am positive from my personal observation the gun related crime has increased in my country since guns were banned here. I'm not talking gun deaths but gun related crime, which seems to have increased in a direct ratio to illegal drug use.
Al I think the article you posted was one of the best I have read for a long time. Thanks for posting.:thumbsup:

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Deaths from firearms per 100,000

Australia........................3.05
Canada..........................4.08
Czech Republic................2.00
Costa Rica......................4.47
Germany........................1.47
New Zealand...................2.97
Peru..............................1.18
Poland...........................0.44
Spain.............................1.01
UK.................................0.57

United States..................14.05

Jim, I believe that US number is a tad inflated, it's closer to 5%.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Since they took firearms away in Australia, all crimes have risen. Crooks and bad guys will always have weapons.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I love you blokes, nothing like never ever being wrong, or conceding that the other persons point may have some veracity. It's all black and white no shades of grey or brown or puce even.
I don't have statistics available but I am positive from my personal observation the gun related crime has increased in my country since guns were banned here. I'm not talking gun deaths but gun related crime, which seems to have increased in a direct ratio to illegal drug use.
Al I think the article you posted was one of the best I have read for a long time. Thanks for posting.:thumbsup:

Thanks Pete, the article is not about guns, but about the people that put themselves at risk to keep others safe.

 

[Al Jones]

As a Viet Nam combat vet, the last thing I want do do is have to resort to shooting someone or any other form of violence. That said, I have to say that Al has a point,maybe a bit severe but valid, nonetheless. I have been mugged at gunpoint and shot at more than once here on US soil - by would-be 'wolves'. I have been formally trained to be the 'sheepdog', albeit the older,maybe wiser (read: cautious) one, and there is no easy way to rid myself of that mantle. Yes, I leave the house unarmed frequently (baaa), but not as much as before since those who prey on the non-suspecting have upped the game. For those who think it can't/won't happen in their neighborhood, I think you should go on line and look up the Petit disaster right here in Cheshire,CT. Bill Petit is the nicest, kindest, 'sheep' you'll ever meet. You might think about what his life will be like now that his wife and 17 and 11 year old daughters were sexually assaulted and murdered, the two girls tied to their beds and burned alive. Bill just didn't think this ever occured in 'his' town. This kind of evil may live right near you, believe it. The scene of this crime was a quiet little town where many never locked their doors and, like Bill, never thought "it would happen here". I'm not paranoid, just willing to face reality. And now someone wants the criminals spared because they had less than perfect childhoods and a drug problem. Yes, the sheep are trying to smooth it all out so they can go back to their former situatons without confrontation. Yes there are situations in which a gun won't help but those are the ones where you're going to lose anyway. No, I don't think I'll be walking around looking for the bad guys, that's the cops' job - but I sure don't want to be the next victim either.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I find it interesting that Washington DC has very strict gun laws, but it has the highest rate of firearm murder per 100,000 in the US.

Deaths per 100,000
Rank States Amount
# 1 District of Columbia: 31.2
# 2 Alaska: 20
# 3 Louisiana: 19.5
# 4 Wyoming: 18.8
# 5 Arizona: 18
= 6 Nevada: 17.3
= 6 Mississippi: 17.3
# 8 New Mexico: 16.6
# 9 Arkansas: 16.3
# 10 Alabama: 16.2
# 11 Tennessee: 15.4
# 12 West Virginia: 14.7
# 13 Montana: 14.5
# 14 South Carolina: 13.8
# 15 North Carolina: 13.6
# 16 Georgia: 13.4
= 17 Kentucky: 13.1
= 17 Oklahoma: 13.1
= 19 Missouri: 12.3
= 19 Idaho: 12.3
# 21 Indiana: 11.7
= 22 Colorado: 11.5
= 22 Maryland: 11.5
= 24 Florida: 11.1
= 24 Virginia: 11.1
# 26 Texas: 11
# 27 Michigan: 10.9
# 28 Oregon: 10.5
# 29 Pennsylvania: 9.9
# 30 California: 9.8
= 31 Illinois: 9.7
= 31 Kansas: 9.7
= 31 Utah: 9.7
# 34 Vermont: 9.6
= 35 Ohio: 9.3
= 35 Washington: 9.3
= 37 Delaware: 9.1
= 37 North Dakota: 9.1
= 39 Wisconsin: 8.1
= 39 Nebraska: 8.1
# 41 South Dakota: 7.9
# 42 Iowa: 6.7
# 43 Maine: 6.5
# 44 Minnesota: 6

 

[Al Jones]

Hey Al, Look at #2. Alaska would have a much better ratio if Sarah Palin didn't invite Dick Cheney up there on hunting trips quite so often!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Hey Al, Look at #2. Alaska would have a much better ratio if Sarah Palin didn't invite Dick Cheney up there on hunting trips quite so often!

I sure as heck wouldn't go hunting with him!

 

[Roark_John]

I find it interesting that Washington DC has very strict gun laws, but it has the highest rate of firearm murder per 100,000 in the US.

Deaths per 100,000
Rank States Amount

# 4 Wyoming: 18.8 My state. We only have a population of 470,000 ppl or so. Also one of the highest percentage of methamphetamine production AND use in the US. Only about 65% is associated with the Mexican Mafia and Marasalvatrucha...
# 5 Arizona: 18 I can't imagine why it's so high...illegals and drug trade?
# 6 Nevada: 17.3 Again...I can't imagine why it's so high...mafia and other related enterprises?
# 8 New Mexico: 16.6 ...same problems as Arizona, with less population.
# 13 Montana: 14.5 Our bordering neighbor to the north. Again...meth and "messicans"
# 19 Idaho: 12.3 Our bordering neighbor to the west. Not as bad for meth or "messicans" but there are ALOT of fringe groups out of this area...
# 22 Colorado: 11.5 Our bordering neighbor to the south. California of the Mountain Region. Enough said.
# 26 Texas: 11 Same problems as New Mexico and Arizona. More guns and yet a lower rate? Something to do with how the laws are written and what onus is put on the law-abiding citizen vs. the law-breaker methinks...
# 28 Oregon: 10.5 Neighbor to the west and north of Idaho. Hippie/yuppie/yippie infested...S. Oregon is very Kalifornicated
# 30 California: 9.8 Massive drug and illegal problem...very strict gun laws. This is inverse world, where the baddies are given all the protections that normal states would bestow on the law-abiding citizen, and the citizens are given the 3rd degree for attempts to quash/quell problems on their own. For some reason I think this statistic is out of wonk or all gun related deaths weren't included...there is no way in hell this works out with all the gang/drug violence!
# 31 Kansas: 9.7 Fucking Mennonites. That's all I've got to say about that.
# 31 Utah: 9.7 Fucking Mormons. That's all I've got to say about that.
# 35 Washington: 9.3 Much like Oregon with alot more 'natives'
# 37 North Dakota: 9.1 Our bordering neighbor to the northeast.
# 39 Nebraska: 8.1 Our bordering neighbor to the southeast.
# 41 South Dakota: 7.9 Our bordering neighbor to the east.

Any others?

 

[Jim Craik]

Every gun is not used every day, don't make ridiculous points if you want someone to answer you seriously. What kind of asinine assumption is that all 270,000,000 firearms are used throughout the course of the year?

Posted by John.

John, I never said anything about gun use per day!

You said there are approximately 270,000,000 guns in the US.

Then you said that guns are used roughly 2,500,000 to 3,500,000 per year to end a violent or potentially violent situation.

John, this is very simple, if you devide the number of intstances by the number of guns, you get on aveage each and every gun being used 9.25 to 12.95 times a year.

That number is not believable!

 

[Jim Craik]

Originally Posted by Al Wohlstrom
I find it interesting that Washington DC has very strict gun laws, but it has the highest rate of firearm murder per 100,000 in the US.

I find it interesting that virtually all the highest deaths rates come from red States! Concervatives do a lot of killing.

Al, the Supreme Court overturned the DC law some time ago.

 

[Roark_John]

Actually...Mike is the one that posted that. I responded to YOUR response to HIS post.

Of course that number is unbelievable! Your math and problem solving skills are wonky. Have you ever taken an Algebra class, let alone Calculus? That is not how you would solve that problem, let alone find the answer. I suggest finding out how to properly solve a math problem before throwing your $0.02 about, like you actually know what the fuck you are talking about...but that's just me.

For the example you gave, if one were to assume that ALL 270 MILLION guns were involved in 3.5 MILLION self-defense cases, the actual number of incidences per year/per gun would be 0.013! Again, this is assuming that ALL firearms in the US were actually involved in the HIGHEST number of self-defense cases per year. You are missing the boat on how to solve this word problem.

I'm not going to bother taking the time to school you on Algebra. How did you ever manage to graduate high school? I use math EVERY single day, from arc-tangents to sine to arc-seconds for setups of workpieces that need to be machined...and I'm FAR from a math-whiz!

Posted by John.

John, I never said anything about gun use per day!

You said there are approximately 270,000,000 guns in the US.

Then you said that guns are used roughly 2,500,000 to 3,500,000 per year to end a violent or potentially violent situation.

John, this is very simple, if you devide the number of intstances by the number of guns, you get on aveage each and every gun being used 9.25 to 12.95 times a year.

That number is not believable!

 

[Terry Oxandale]

15 years ago me and my wife walked into my house and the first thing to greet my eyes was my stereo equipment ripped out of the cabinets they were housed in. As I walked toward that cabinet to look at the destruction and mess in the rest of the room, a kid half my age was halfway down the stairs on my left with my loaded 357 Magnum. He pointed it in my face as he walked around me and out the still open back door.

I thank God I did not end up another statistic of someone killed by his own gun, and I never replaced it. The ash axe handles in various places in the house now make me feel much safer than I ever felt in the past.

 

[Nick]

Terry,

I understand where you are coming from. Five years ago I went outside to see why eggs were being thrown at my house by some kids. I went to remonstrate with them and was rewarded with being hit in the face with an iron bar secreted under his coat, in an unprovoked attack by their father who was walking a little way in front of them.

The “gentleman” who did this thought my son had been throwing eggs at his house, (he was 200 miles away at his Gran’s on the alleged day). I thank God it was me he hit and not my son who he was really after.

The police would love to have prosecuted him but the crown prosecution service who now decide these things, said it was his word against mine, (he claimed my son did it to me) and so would not pursue the case. To rub salt into the wound they even criticised the police with for not providing him with an interpreter when interviewed. He speaks perfect English.

Found out from the police that he had previously stabbed his brother and broken his sister in laws arm in a dispute, basically just a thug who got of scott free twice.

I am very lucky Garry Newlove in my home town did a similar thing a few years back when he tried to stop 3 drunk teenagers from vandalising a neighbour's car, they kicked him to death.

I believe if he had a gun either myself, my son of both of us would not be here now.

As it is I may have a facial scar as a constant reminder, my modelling career may be over, but I am alive to tell the tale.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I think we have a mild case of thread drift, if I understand Al's post and as he clearly said earlier the post is not about gun control or the lack of it,
but about people who are prepared to put themselves at risk to protect the sheep.
Nick I'm amazed that the guy who bashed you was not prosecuted. Another case of political correctness maybe, seeing he claimed to need an interpreter?
Glad he didn't hurt you too badly.

 

[Ron Earp]

Al, the Supreme Court overturned the DC law some time ago.

DC vs. Heller - District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DC vs. Heller paved the way for the Chicago gun ban to be overturned and put municipalities on notice that future ban laws may be viewed as unconstitutional. I've not looked at the FBI firearm homicide statistics to see if gun crime in DC has skyrocketed but I doubt that it has statistically changed at all.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I find it interesting that virtually all the highest deaths rates come from red States! Concervatives do a lot of killing.

Al, the Supreme Court overturned the DC law some time ago.

The 31.2 per 100k in DC was in 2005 prior to court ruling in 2008.
This is of some interest, in 2009 and 2010 the murder rate dropped, maybe some of the sheep have guns. That shoots the gun theory in the butt.

DC

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Jim, A lot of the red states are on or near the border and have drug and illegal immigrant traffic accounting for some of the murder rate.

 

[Nick]

I think we have a mild case of thread drift, if I understand Al's post and as he clearly said earlier the post is not about gun control or the lack of it,
but about people who are prepared to put themselves at risk to protect the sheep.
Nick I'm amazed that the guy who bashed you was not prosecuted. Another case of political correctness maybe, seeing he claimed to need an interpreter?
Glad he didn't hurt you too badly.

Pete,

Thanks for the response; sorry about the thread drift, I think it was political correctness combined possibly with economics, and that it was caused me the most pain

Back to the thread, one thing that has been overlooked is the sheepdog would not protect the sheep so effectively if the sheppard had not trained him to do so.

In fact it is possible without the Sheppard to guide them dogs in a pack, even sheepdogs, are capable of attacking the sheep.

The Sheppard is also wise enough to realise that he could possibly live without the sheepdog, although he wouldn't want to. For protection against the Wolves for example he could build a big fence etc, but without the sheep as a farmer he is basically stuffed.

Guess we all have a role to play, sheep and sheepdogs we just all need a really good Sheppard, who understands that all dogs descended from wolves, has the understanding it will not be an easy route, but has the skills patience, and intellect to turn the wolves into Sheepdogs.

Regards

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Pete,

Thanks for the response; sorry about the thread drift, I think it was political correctness combined possibly with economics, and that it was caused me the most pain

Back to the thread, one thing that has been overlooked is the sheepdog would not protect the sheep so effectively if the sheppard had not trained him to do so.

In fact it is possible without the Sheppard to guide them dogs in a pack, even sheepdogs, are capable of attacking the sheep.

The Sheppard is also wise enough to realise that he could possibly live without the sheepdog, although he wouldn't want to. For protection against the Wolves for example he could build a big fence etc, but without the sheep as a farmer he is basically stuffed.

Guess we all have a role to play, sheep and sheepdogs we just all need a really good Sheppard, who understands that all dogs descended from wolves, has the understanding it will not be an easy route, but has the skills patience, and intellect to turn the wolves into Sheepdogs.

Regards

We in the US have sheppard with zip for experience and no ambition to learn. He doesn't even like sheepdogs. (you probably shouldn't have gone there)