Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

[Nick]

We in the US have sheppard with zip for experience and no ambition to learn. He doesn't even like sheepdogs. (you probably shouldn't have gone there)

Al,


Do not presume to much I never mentioned politicians.

At least as you havn't attacked the rest so combined with your comments above, I must assume you agree we need a good Sheppard to look after the sheep and control the sheepdogs.

No I still haven’t found what I’m looking for, and no it’s not Bono either.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

We in the US have to not let political correctness hamper and handcuff the sheepdogs in their duties.

 

[Nick]

We in the US have to not let political correctness hamper and handcuff the sheepdogs in their duties.

Al,

You have lost me on that one, no idea what you mean.

Nick

 

[Roark_John]

And at the same time prevent the sheepdogs from overstepping their duties and becoming bullies as bad or worse than the wolves...

Law enforcement and the military both have stepped on their own dicks plenty of times, enough to be wary of saying that "in the name of protection" is good enough reason...Ruby Ridge, Abu Ghraib are some recent enough examples...and history is strewn with them.

It's all about walking that fine line and not crossing it unless the circumstances are genuinely end-of-the-line, no-other-recourse possible.

We in the US have to not let political correctness hamper and handcuff the sheepdogs in their duties.

 

[Nick]

And at the same time prevent the sheepdogs from overstepping their duties and becoming bullies as bad or worse than the wolves...

Law enforcement and the military both have stepped on their own dicks plenty of times, enough to be wary of saying that "in the name of protection" is good enough reason...Ruby Ridge, Abu Ghraib are some recent enough examples...and history is strewn with them.

It's all about walking that fine line and not crossing it unless the circumstances are genuinely end-of-the-line, no-other-recourse possible.

John,

Agreed 100%, a historic day. One bad apple does not spoil the bunch but it makes it very very, difficult for the rest.

I need a lie down (OJ)

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I think the problem may be that the sheep know the sheepdog descended from the wolves and deep down are scared of him. And as they get to vote for who will be the shepherd, they vote for the shepherd who gives them the best warm fuzzy feelings and sense of protection, rather than the tough guy who will do the best for the entire flock....

Jeez to many crownies I think.

 

[Graham]

Pete,

A report on Snopes regarding gun crime in Australia in the last couple of decades.

It highlights how figures can be manipulated...

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

This seems to be a pretty balanced article citing issues on bith sides.

Sometimes I wonder if I appear to be far more "left wing" than I actually am. Over here I would be considered a conservative with a small "c".

I find myself reading back over old posts and shocking myself as to how entrenched we all seem to become in these debates. It is as though we all look at our opponents (wrong word, but can't think of a better one right now), and the further they go in their direction, the further I do in order to try and balance the debate. It is rubber band debating at it's best and it achieves very little unfortunately.

All we then end up with is zero consensus and nobody moving forward.

Unfortunately, in this day and age of multiple media sources, we can all pull a rabbit out of the hat spouting exactly what we feel is correct.

Pete, you posted a couple of days ago on this thread these exact points to a greater or lesser degree and you are spot on. The trouble is I probably just can't keep my gob shut

Actually, just scratch the word "probably" from that last sentence :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Graham.

P.S A message to Al. I called your first post in this thread a load of old bollocks. Apologies for that - it was I who was talking bollocks when I wrote that sentence, as you have every right to post what you like and the piece (although I don't agree with it) was thought provoking enough to create five pages of thread, so a good thing overall. Oh, and I had had too many beers at the time too

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Pete,

A report on Snopes regarding gun crime in Australia in the last couple of decades.

It highlights how figures can be manipulated...

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

This seems to be a pretty balanced article citing issues on bith sides.

Sometimes I wonder if I appear to be far more "left wing" than I actually am. Over here I would be considered a conservative with a small "c".

I find myself reading back over old posts and shocking myself as to how entrenched we all seem to become in these debates. It is as though we all look at our opponents (wrong word, but can't think of a better one right now), and the further they go in their direction, the further I do in order to try and balance the debate. It is rubber band debating at it's best and it achieves very little unfortunately.

All we then end up with is zero consensus and nobody moving forward.

Unfortunately, in this day and age of multiple media sources, we can all pull a rabbit out of the hat spouting exactly what we feel is correct.

Pete, you posted a couple of days ago on this thread these exact points to a greater or lesser degree and you are spot on. The trouble is I probably just can't keep my gob shut

Actually, just scratch the word "probably" from that last sentence :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Graham.

P.S A message to Al. I called your first post in this thread a load of old bollocks. Apologies for that - it was I who was talking bollocks when I wrote that sentence, as you have every right to post what you like and the piece (although I don't agree with it) was thought provoking enough to create five pages of thread, so a good thing overall. Oh, and I had had too many beers at the time too

no problem

 

[Martin]

I find myself reading back over old posts and shocking myself as to how entrenched we all seem to become in these debates. It is as though we all look at our opponents (wrong word, but can't think of a better one right now), and the further they go in their direction, the further I do in order to try and balance the debate. It is rubber band debating at it's best and it achieves very little unfortunately.



All we then end up with is zero consensus and nobody moving forward.

Unfortunately, in this day and age of multiple media sources, we can all pull a rabbit out of the hat spouting exactly what we feel is correct.

There really was no debating going on at all. Getting progressively more insulting to make a point adds nothing. If you feel someone is being unreasonable, best ignore them or you just end up shouting at eachother. This kind of forum or Email bounce back debating only works if those entering the arena can face different opinions without feeling their standpoint is compromised or judged. We all have an opinion and no one is necessarily right or wrong, just lots of shades of grey. What works in the U.S will not work in Europe and visa versa. Who has the answers ? Basically no one. We all try to achieve what we can within our own environment in our lifetime given the constraints we all have to live with. Opinions matter, but so do good manners and ettiquette.
I actually found Al's first post quite interesting which is why I posted to begin with. The rest of the posts were quite frankly noise. IMHO.

Martin

 

[domtoni]

Martin says what I posted either earlier or in another Al thread. The US is much more conservative politically and what works in the states, doesn't necessarily work in EU.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Pete,

A report on Snopes regarding gun crime in Australia in the last couple of decades.

It highlights how figures can be manipulated...

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

This seems to be a pretty balanced article citing issues on bith sides.

Sometimes I wonder if I appear to be far more "left wing" than I actually am. Over here I would be considered a conservative with a small "c".

I find myself reading back over old posts and shocking myself as to how entrenched we all seem to become in these debates. It is as though we all look at our opponents (wrong word, but can't think of a better one right now), and the further they go in their direction, the further I do in order to try and balance the debate. It is rubber band debating at it's best and it achieves very little unfortunately.

All we then end up with is zero consensus and nobody moving forward.

Unfortunately, in this day and age of multiple media sources, we can all pull a rabbit out of the hat spouting exactly what we feel is correct.

Pete, you posted a couple of days ago on this thread these exact points to a greater or lesser degree and you are spot on. The trouble is I probably just can't keep my gob shut

Actually, just scratch the word "probably" from that last sentence :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Graham.

P.S A message to Al. I called your first post in this thread a load of old bollocks. Apologies for that - it was I who was talking bollocks when I wrote that sentence, as you have every right to post what you like and the piece (although I don't agree with it) was thought provoking enough to create five pages of thread, so a good thing overall. Oh, and I had had too many beers at the time too

For some reason we keep coming back to guns and gun control. Al's original
post was not about guns. I am very happy to debate gun control if someone wants to start another thread.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Oh, and I had had too many beers at the time too

PWD.

Been there, done that!

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

The difference between a gun and any other weapon:
-a gun requires less effort on the part of its user than other weapons do.
-a gun is able to perform its job (of throwing a missile at something) without having to be in close proximity to the thing that it is aimed at.
-a gun takes less time to do what it does than any other weapon.
-a gun is smaller than MOST other weapons (not all)
-a gun is more amenable to impulse use than any other weapon. Even if you decide to run someone over with a car, it still takes a lot longer to aim it and use it than it does a gun.

Finally, as a physician, working in emergency departments, who has spent my entire professional life trying to keep people alive and well (including people injured with firearms) I take issue with the idea, implied above as I understand it, that a shepherd or sheep dog- a protector of other living beings- necessarily has to be armed. Frankly, I think that it takes a lot more guts to confront an angry irrational person WITHOUT having a gun in your possession than it does when you know you can shoot them. And yet I do this frequently. I don't know of any ER physicians who carry a gun at work; it seems totally opposed to what we do. And although I am fairly diplomatic, and work hard at it, I've taken down people half my age and quite a bit bigger than me with my bare hands, when I had to. I don't like it, but if the staff and other patients are in harm's way, I'll do it. And of course I'm scared, but doing what you see needs done whether you are scared or not seems to me to be what a responsible grownup does.

My country is awash in both guns and trouble. There is a relationship there, and although I am not an advocate of banning guns, I wish they were far better controlled. As far as I am concerned, I don't need a gun to be a shepherd or a sheep dog or whatever you want to call it. I just need to be able to see what's right now and then.

 

[Jeff Young]

Amen.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Once again, this thread is not about guns, it's about the people that keep us out of harms way.

 

[Pat]

I can't take credit for this but it seems appropriate on how the world works lately...

If a man cuts his finger off while
slicing salami at work,
he blames the restaurant.

If you smoke three packs a day
For 40 years and die of lung cancer,
your family blames the
tobacco company..

If your neighbor crashes
into a tree while driving home drunk,
he blames the bartender.

If your grandchildren are
Brats without manners,
you blame television.

If your friend is shot by a
Deranged madman,
you blame the gun manufacturer.

And if a crazed person breaks
into the cockpit and
tries to kill the pilot at 35,000 feet,
and the passengers
kill him instead,
the mother of the crazed deceased
blames the airline.

Perhaps I must have lived too long to
understand the world
as it is anymore.

So, if I die while my OLD WRINKLED ASS is parked in front of this computer,
I want all of you to
blame Bill Gates.