T&L Engines Quality Control??? - BEWARE!

[Randy]

I ordered the 347 stroker w/webers. They said they could supply 48 IDA's in place of the IDF's . Well that never happened! after 2 mo. of waiting I had them put a holley on it so I could move forward. Motor dyno at 435 hp. ran great . A little valve noise prompted a valve adjustment. This is when I noticed poor rocker tip too valve stem allignment. Removing the rocker showed a sloppy needle bearing fulcrum. infact the fulcrum shaft slides easly in rocker body. NO GOOD. Next I noticed one of the rocker nuts was down lower than the rest! Took that rocker off and it was missing the push rod cup. It was adjusted and didn't make any noise.
Bottom line at the verry least POOR QUALITY roller rockers. I think they are Pro Comp brand, that is made in China...
But more importantly the guy that put this motor together was a sleep.
Hellow you would notice the drastic adjustment difference, or I would have noticed it. I assume you get the fact I am pick mother f-er, but come on!!
I Know T&L has cheep prices, but anyone waiting on a motor ,call and upgrade their rockers at least.
Any with one of thier motors heads up. I only have 25 mi. on this motor. The 3 worst rockers had aleady scraped through the red anodising and you can feel where the nuts were eat the sides.Loose Fulcrums
Glad I looked!!!The question is : am I going to be able to sleep with out checking the whole motor!!!
Randy

 

[Cliff Beer]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Thanks Randy, that's good information. I've been thinking about ordering the same engine with the IDFs. The prices are obviously good, but as you point out, are you really getting what you think you are getting?

 

[WesS]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

just got a quote from them yesterday.
seemed pretty good. now...
he quoted me 5 to 6 weeks. guess i'll have to ask how accurate that number is. also ask about his quality.
any other company worth checking into?
thanks for the info,
wes

 

[Russ Noble]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I purchased my engine components seperately.

Heads and valve train from Keith Craft Racing. Block, crank, rods and pistons from A & D Performance and some other bits from Flatlander Racing. All these guys have been good to deal with and with me being new to American V8's they have been happy to talk me through the issues. I wanted good quality at reasonable prices and basically that is what I got.

Crack testing, final machining and balancing was done here locally using contacts I trust. And I am just in the process of assembling it myself. This way I know exactly what I've got and that it's put together right.

Cheers,

 

[TonyM]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

just got a quote from them yesterday.
seemed pretty good. now...
he quoted me 5 to 6 weeks. guess i'll have to ask how accurate that number is. also ask about his quality.
any other company worth checking into?
thanks for the info,
wes

Just an FYI, I had posted this on another thread regarding T&L

"I too ordered a 347 stroker with Webers from T&L, unfortunately my experience hasn't been that good. I order mine in December 2006, after 16 weeks it was finally ready, however they built it on the wrong block..!! There seems to be a lack of communications within the company and a high turnover of staff. They ended up doing a rebuild with the right block but that took another 12 weeks. When the engine was finally delivered it was missing the water pump, which on the quote was included. I called Lloyd at T&L and asked that he ship a water pump...he never did. Countless calls and leaving messages got me no where. In the end I purchased a pump and we put the engine in the car. Then the next problem appeared, a significant coolant leak from the timing cover. Tried calling Lloyd again, I eventually got through and asked if he could call Bill Andrews regarding the leak, over two weeks went by and no call. I started calling Lloyd every morning until he finally picked up the phone. He is supposedly calling Bill today...we'll see.

After searching other forums I found I'm not the first to have problems and probably won't be the last. If you buy a canned package and you don't mind waiting they are probably OK. If you want something specific they might not be the best way to go. If you have any issues don't expect them to get resolved very quickly. It's been 10 months since I originally ordered the engine and I still don't have anything that runs. If I were to do it again I'd pick a builder that was in closer proximity, one that I could grab by the throat if necessary.

Would I recommend T&L.....at this point.....no."

The final outcome was that the timing cover was poorly manufactured and had to be replaced. Lloyd stated that they pressure test the cooling systems, but if they had they would have found the leak....and it wasn't just a trickle it was pouring out. Anyway they did replace the timing cover and all is well so far, but the engine has only been fired up for a few seconds. Now I'm thinking I should check out the top end and see if anything else is a miss...!!

Regards,

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I'm going to move this to the consumer watch area and leave a pointer here.

Those engine prices from T&L and on Ebay look tempting. The comments thus far are not complementary from what little I've heard about them, but I am not passing judgment. You may wish to bring these threads to their attention and see if they will rectify anything for you.

Ron

 

[Simon Rider]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Ok, i'm getting a little worried as i'm getting my engine built by T & L.
Can anyone with a positive experience of them speak up so as to add some balance..

 

[Jim Dewar]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Simon, My experience with Lloyd and his crew was a very positive one. They built me a 347 4 brl. that runs great. This is their specialty and I believe thats important when choosing a builder. If you order fast food, don't request 6 changes in the sandwich. There will be delays and errors!

 

[Jack Houpe]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I ordered my Dart Block 427 with webers in July, it is to be here this week. I was told 8 weeks and expected 8 weeks, if I was told 5 months I would have still purchased the motor but would expect it in 5 months and not a day later. I also went for a shop tour before I gave them my money, its clean, seems to be well organized. I am not sure if the problems they are having are as of the last 6 months to a year but seems help is a major issue. Lloyd has always been very easy to deal with, but has let me down on getting it done by the time quoted. Would I purchase a T and L engine? YES if it was already done and sitting in a crate ready to go. What is the quality, I will let you know on Thursday 27th, as its suppose to be delivered. I also researched other forums (Chevy guys) on T and L and they all had good things to say. I also researched the NC laws regarding issues like this (I was getting worried) and you are entitled to 3 times your purchase if you are fraudulently mislead. I do hope it all to be in working order without any MAJOR issues. Lets see on the 27th.

 

[Chuck]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I took delivery of my T and L 302 in mid June, 2007. I was delivered on schedule and built to my specs. It has IDF carbs, which required that T and L do a bit more tuning and adjusting, since they were set up for 347 configuration engines with the Webers rather than a true 302. But all was well, or so I thought.

When we pulled the "Ford Racing" valve covers to fit the Guerney Weslake covers we noticed that a couple of the rocker arms were not centered on the valve stems. Turns out the wrong push rod guides had been used on one cylinder which had a wider opening than appropriate. The problem was obvious even to my inexperienced eye. (Not sure how that happened, since they come in sets. Indeed the offending piece was even marked differently). We contacted Lloyd and he was most helpful, promptly sending a replacement guide plate and detailed instructions on installing it.

One of the sentances in the directions noted that if one places a straightedge across the boltes securing the rocker arms they should all line up fairly close. Tried that. They don't. So that is another issue we will have to explore. I don't know how much variation would be deemed appropriate, but it looks like as much as 1/8 inch variation.

Hopefully these are only minor glitches, since the engine speced out very nice, looks good, and was otherwise delivered in a timely manner.

By the way, the spec sheet names the builder: Ros Godek. Curious as to who built your engine?

We have not yet run the engine. Hope to start it in the next week or so.

The first picture shows the mis alignment, the second taken while we were replacing the guide.

 

[chuck smith]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I would suggest Keith Craft or George Gessford as competant and detail oriented builders, after all, it is the details that result in a solid long lived motor.

 

[Randy]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Chuck, those are the same rockers on my motor,replace them! they are poor.Hold one in your hand and feel how sloppy they are! They look pretty all red but, looking carefully 3 of mine the nuts have rubbed the red off and is eating the inside of the slot.
Jack I had the same time delay. Call and pay for a better set of rockers!
I feel for Loyd at T&L the world is price driven. To be competative he is trying to use the lowest cost parts he can.
I looked on ebay at rockers, Virtually all were these same 100$ red "pro comp" ,brand, read discription. Even the stainless body one are by "pro comp"
" pro comp" is flooding the auto after market with low cost aluminum heads, cranks, roller rockers, etc. We as consumers need to look out for this new china made stuff, some are junk.There quality control needs work.
Bottom line I ordered a set of "comp cams , pro magnum" roller rockers. Hoping to get better quality. I hope when T&L get mine back he will make it right! I'll keep y'all posted.
Randy

 

[Randy]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Chuck, Have you loosened the rocker studs and tried moving guide plate around?The hole is over sized just for this. Several of mine looked just like yours that I readjusted with good result. Thats all yours may need!! But I would also replace those rockers! It was while doing my readjustment that I noticed the other rocker ploblems.
Randy

 

[Chuck]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Randy:

Thanks for the heads up.

I did replace the guide plate. It had a measurably wider opening than the others. The fit appears appropriate with the replacement - which now matches the others.

I am interested in what rocker arms you will select to replace the red ones. Based on what I saw when we replaced that plate, I had some concerns about the quality of those rocker arms and/or the quality of the assembly and you have confirmed my concerns.

Chuck

 

[Simon Rider]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Hi all,
my concerns are still running a high after reading about Chucks issues. Regardless of the parts used in a build they should be fitted well at the very least, a proper fitting should cost no more to do than a poor one after all.
Chuck - are you concerned about the quality of rest of the build and the parts not so easily examined ?
The engine i've gone for is costing around $13k (with an alloy block option) and has a Jessel roller rocker/shaft setup which i believe is good, but i'm obviously fearing for the build quality. I'm in the UK so sorting out any potential issues like this once the motor gets to me will be a major headache. Do you think it's worth me giving Lloyd a heads up with regards to this sort of thing or do i risk p*ssing him off by assuming the build will be below par ?
I paid my deposit at the start of December.

 

[Jack Houpe]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

My motor was #1647, if this was in sequence then Lloyd would have been out of business a long time ago if all his motors were bad or he did shady work. His place of business is first class, very nice machine shop, white rooms and 3 engine dynos. You don't get that type of equipment and crank out crap and stay in business. I will say communications from the front office are nil to poor. I will let everyone know how my engine is when it shows up. At this point other than poor quality rockers does anyone have anything else to say about the build at T and L?

 

[chuck smith]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

there are numerous threads on the issue at the ffcobra forum as well as clubcobra, some good and bad comments. I do think it would be silly to assume he can build a motor for so much less than competitors without sacraficing on something. Quaility components are very expensive. Try adding up what it would cost you to build a 347 using middle of the road components from trusted companies, you will be suprised at the material cost alone

 

[Simon Rider]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I hear what you're saying Chuck, but does the build quality need to suffer ?

 

[Chuck]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

Simon:

You asked about any concerns I may have based on the guide plate issue. I hope to start the engine in the next week or two, after which I may know a bit more. But other than the guide plate issue (which was promptly addressed by Lloyd) and the concerns about the rocker arms (which I cannot personally verify on my engine yet) the engine looks good, had a good dyno sheet and video of it on the dyno., came with detailed records regarding the build (torque, dimensions, etc.). I tend not to prejudge. ( You know "innocent until proven guilty.") As of now I am well satisfied and if a problem comes up with the rocker arms later I will address it at that time.

There are always glitches. My 427 SO had a faulty intake manifold gasket, not due to a manufacturing error but due to a badly designed Felpro gasket. That problem was address and that engine is doing great.

So I would say wait and see. Odds are you won't have problems and if you do, I found Lloyd to be very responsive and helpful.

A couple of pics are attached. One as delivered with the Ford Racing covers and the second with the GW covers.

Chuck

 

[Randy]

Re: T&L engines Quality control???

I am not trying to gather a lynch mob, as much giving a heads up about not being afraid to look carefully and critically at a "new " motor. Pull valve covers. and look. Dont assume a new part is a good part. I am replacing my rockers . The motor runs very strong. T&L must do good work or they would be out of buisness.
Most of all anyone dealing with them. ask for a detailed list of parts, and upgrade!!
Lloyd was glad to up grade my block to a 4-bolt.
Parts over all are getting worse not better, in my opinion. I am with you Chuck its always something! I am sure your engine will be great, and you and I are glad we took the time to look.
The idea that you need to tear down a new motor is hard to swallow and NOT what I am saying. I am saying , look around and if something looks strange, take the time to investigate it , you may be glad you did.!
Randy