The armed conflict 1939-45

[Dean Lampe]

A great topic like this and we can't even get to the third page? Common on now all you guys on the sidelines. You have to stand for something! I don't think I can be anymore controversial. Does anyone else want to add some gas to the fire? Just wait till Scott gets back from dinner.

Oh yeah, the conservatives are on the right with your liberals and the liberals are on the left with your labours. Clear as mudboomsmile

Edit: Just made the third page!epper:

 

[Jac Mac]

A great topic like this and we can't even get to the third page? Common on now all you guys on the sidelines. You have to stand for something! I don't think I can be anymore controversial. Does anyone else want to add some gas to the fire? Just wait till Scott gets back from dinner.

Oh yeah, the conservatives are on the right with your liberals and the liberals are on the left with your labours. Clear as mudboomsmile

Edit: Just made the third page!epper:

At $6.54 a gallon I have better uses for my gasoline, yes I know our gallons are bigger than your US version but the Kiwi $$$ is a scale version!!!

Jac Mac

 

[Geoff Hurrell]

Having being born and lived in Zimbabwe all my life - except for the last four years - all I can say is we are waiting and hoping to see the tanks on the horizon. Somebody has to come and kick some sense into these idiots that have destroyed a beautiful country. ie. mugabe and his fellow cowards.
The UN and all the other organizations that run around having conferences and patting themselves on the back have not been much use where we are.

We have no oil but you should see the wildlife. (whats left of it)

 

[Dean Lampe]

I think we should be there with the tanks as well. Unfortunately, if Presedent Bush did send military help, it would be with out the approval of the UN. This would trigger another wave of critisism from the "world voice" that hates President Bush no matter what he does. It is really frustrating when what you see as right or wrong depends on whether or not your political party is responsible for the action. If President Bush solved all the world problems, there would still be those idiots out there who would say he did it for his own benefit.

Thats it for me, Goodnight!

 

[Ian Anderson]

No need to send the tanks in to Zimbabwe

Just stop funding the Aids programme - The country's army used to be the biggest blood donator for the blood transfusion service.
In 1990 the Blood Transfuion service stopped "bleeding: the army as the HIV positive reached 75% of all that drawn and HIV blood had to be destroyed - it also put the trained Lab Technitions at extreme risk while processing it.

The UK did a survey in 1989 / 1990 and the average male between 15 and 50 had 20 girls on the go at any one time - that explains the Aids numbers.

The % is now at about 95% of the Army. So stop the Aids drugs and there will be nobody there to protect Big Bad Bob.

That statement is not politically correct, I know, but that is the reality of the situation. But then who wants to "bump off" half the population of a country in the next few years and stand by and watch it happen?

People wonder why Bob sent the Zim army to Zaire to fight - the reason was money - he paid the army in local ZW$ and took the payment in US$ the US$ is worth something unlike the ZW$.
I left in 1990 and it took ZW$2.5 to but 1GB£ The current official rate is ZW$490000 = 1GB£ (But the official rate is not working so the country trades on Black Market at ZWD2000000 = GB£1 (Note I have taken into effect the devaluation of losing three zeros in August 2006) Inflation per the government is over 1000% - in reality to live expect closer to 3500% per annum. (I guess my Zimbabwe pension is not worth much now!)

Anyway the country is great, the wldlife better, the average person very friendly but without something that someone else wants (OIL / NUKES) Zimbabwe is written off.

By the way I have also now heard that a lot of the farms taken from "White Farmers" have been given to Col. Qadafi (Libya) to "pay" for oil he sent to them.

Ian

 

[Jim Nielsen]

Lets see the Iraq way of life. Medical supplies to few, no schooling, fresh water to onliy a few, cell phones not existent, the ability to speak you mind punishable by death.
Now they are getting medical supplies, schools, playgrounds, fresh water, the cell phone industry is booming there, They can now buy luxuries, they have an operational navy, an opertional air force, police being trained, oil profits are looking to be distributed to the people rather than a dictator. They can vote! You dont hear much about this in the media and soldiers are wondering why.
The US gives more to other countries for disasters and other relief than all other countries combined. No we dont do everything right but name anyone who does.
I will gladly set down and have a beer with any of you in the future. You are entitled to your opinion. Just wish people would base arguments on facts.

Jim

 

[David Morton]

Jim, Some neat points well put there. I think we do hear about some of the improvements here in the UK. However, the news tends to be the dramatic headlines first with the awful news of troop losses (Coalition forces) followed by how may car bombs went off today.
In spite of the improvements, there still seems to be a lack of the 'so called ' exit strategy both in the UK and USA and, IMHO, our 'leaders' will have to address this PDQ because there seems to be a ground swell of protest which growing every day.
Dave M

 

[Dean Lampe]

Most of the protest here in the states seems to be lead by the super rich and the Hollywood movie stars, many of which aren't smart enough to point to Iraq on the map! This world war against terror can not turn into a popularity contest. I can't think a a single war that the general population enjoyed fighting. Let them protest. After all that is what our brave soldiers are fighting for. For their right to protest.

We definately need an exit strategy. If we stay to long they will get dependent on the coalition forces instead of themselves.

We become what we see and hear from the news sources we surround ourselves with. That is why there is so much tension around this issue. There is a huge difference between NPR (national public radio) and Fox News. What ever we listen to we take as true and that forms our opinion about the subject. I would encourage all to talk to a few of the soldiers. Get the real story. Don't be so niave. Don't believe everything you hear on the news. Go to the source. The coalition of the few is doing great things in Iraq even if the liberals won't admit it.

 

[David Briggs]

I am of the opinion that nothing in any of those countries is worth one American life, if the local population is unhappy with the political climate than let them do something about it themselves. Everybody wants the help of the US at some point(especially if it involve any risk to their own sorry asses(Balkens?).
As for Africa it seems that those people have been killing each other for centuries, the only time their attention is diverted from that activity is when a there are Europeans or Americans available to kill. Look at Palestine right now, for decades they have wanted the Isreali's out and finally the Isreali's complied and are no longer available as targets. Not a problem, now Hamas and Fatah have gone back to killing each other, they are not interested in developing their state and expect the rest of the world to send them money so they can survive. This is another area we need to ignore and let them sort it out by themselves. Same thing in Lebanon.

 

[JimmyMac]

Don't forget the boys out in Afghanistan either.
When Iraq broke, it took everybody's eye off the ball in Afghanistan.
There's a lot of hand-to-hand fighting going on out there and our lads are dying. Nobody has given us a good reason why. Not me anyway.
And we hear nothing on the UK news headlines this week apart from a half-wit being ejected from the Big Brother TV show and a thousand free-loaders stealing cargo from a shipwreck.
One mortality was reported fifth in the news line-up after this kind of drivel.

 

[Russ Noble]

We become what we see and hear from the news sources we surround ourselves with. That is why there is so much tension around this issue. There is a huge difference between NPR (national public radio) and Fox News. What ever we listen to we take as true and that forms our opinion about the subject.

That is so true. You only get to see and hear what the editor wants you to! I know people who have given interviews and the clip that is played portrays something totally different to what they actually said and meant! In these days of computer enhancement, special effects etc you can't even rely on the old adage "a photo never lies". Sorry, just my jaundiced view of the media.

That is why the power of the internet is a good thing, you can often get facts and opinions that maybe politicians and editors are attempting to "spin" differently. Better information leads to better decisions.

And if Ian's facts about Zimbabwe are correct, and as a man on the ground so to speak, it is fair to assume they are, then it would appear he has found the perfect solution to that problem! I like the idea, pity it's not PC, it could save millions in foreign aid.

Got to go to work now, it's Monday here, you guys in the northern hemisphere are still enjoying your Sunday.

Cheers

 

[Keith]

Don't forget the boys out in Afghanistan either.
When Iraq broke, it took everybody's eye off the ball in Afghanistan.
There's a lot of hand-to-hand fighting going on out there and our lads are dying. Nobody has given us a good reason why. Not me anyway.
And we hear nothing on the UK news headlines this week apart from a half-wit being ejected from the Big Brother TV show and a thousand free-loaders stealing cargo from a shipwreck.
One mortality was reported fifth in the news line-up after this kind of drivel.

Well said McTavish.....rockonsmile

 

[Scott Calabro]

WHEW !!!!!

Democracy will prevail in the middle east, and we will all look back at the soldiers who faught and died in this conflict with great respect and reverance. Our treasure their BLOOD. I hope everyone knows on this site that the most important thing to do is to support the men and women fighting in foreign lands to promote FREEDOM. Not just in thoughts but in action. Send care packages, donate money to fallen soldiers families, PRAY, any number of things can be done with just a little effort.
Let me say that I have been on every continent (except Antarctica), several times while flying the engineers seat, and have always thought as Great Britain and Austrailia as the next best thing to being home stateside. So if I seem biased, I am. I checked into it and I'm to old to serve in our military. If I weren't I'd jump at the chance to wrench on Apache's or F-16's.

I hope the mate from down under gets his coin back.

Dean, you sound like a friend....THANKS.

This discussion and this site are the bomb.

S rockonsmile

 

[Price Walton]

For the record, I've been out hunting and wondering if somebody was running with this topic.....

My comment was aimed to reinforce the fact that the success at hand had many fathers. Claiming sole credit for something that involved many parties is decidedly poor form.

Again, for the record, I agree that Saddam should have been removed for his human rights abuses, but was eventually toppled to lower the price of oil (precious oil, that we all desire for our GT40's). Mugabe is a model for despotic dictators wishing to survive ad infinitum and remain members of the most exclusive clubs, even more than Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire.

I've been unfortunate enough to interview survivors of torture and trauma from around the world and the things that link the oppressors are the belief in their superiority and their sole possession of the ability to right perceived wrongs (along with the power and wealth that is accorded to those righteous ones).

By all means claim credit for what you have alone achieved, but share it around when deserved. A dose of humility does wonders for our perspective.

 

[ChrisL]

Majority views have changed but not because people are gullible. Quite the opposite. The population has had the time to hear and understand both sides of the argument, and to digest the more complex issues. And under those circumstances, the truth will always tend to rise above the propaganda. Unfortunately, those lonely misguided souls still left arguing to continue military action are like gambling addicts who refuse to consolidate their losses. Instead of accepting reality, their fear drives them to bet with dirty money in the hope that they will now win the big one.

 

[Joey Dean]

Talk about your hijacked thread.

Oh well, going with the flow. One thing you learn from Sadaam was that history does indeed repeat itself. From the Roman Empire, collapse of the USSR, Boznia, Iraq, et al we find that as soon as a dominant (read it brutal or however you wish) central government is taken away you end up with the very thing resurfacing that made them ripe for domination in the first place, severe internal conflict. Everyone wishes for people to have a voice in their own destiny through the politicl process. I know all the players in Afghanistan and Iraq were indeed counting on the boot the evil man, jail the supporters, free men arise, and peace and democracy reigning supreme equation. Unfortunately, the 2000 years of in-fighting were overlooked in the math. As I understand it, and I am by no means an authority, the Sunni and Shiite division is based upon who should have been the proper leader to take over after the death oh Mohamed. They have made it into "a hill upon which to die". Unfortunately, they are willing to take everyone down with them.

I don't want there to have to be any countries forces there supporting a regime that seems unable and unwiling to take responsiblity for itself. A wholesale immediate pull-out seems to have dire overtones to the stability in the area, however. We all agree to the end, the means is proving to be quite the devil in the details.

 

[David Briggs]

Joey Dean , having owned a rusty Jensen during a brief gloomy period in my life, I can feel your pain!
Back to this thread, there is a huge difference in assisting a nation state in its struggle to achieve change and become democratic and trying to simply export democracy and capitalism to places that have no interest and are not trying to affect that change on their own.
We assisted the Aussies, New Zealanders, Brits, Russian and other europeans in a fight that they were already doing the best they could and their sacrifices were many, They did not expect us to do all the heavy lifting and everybody fought against the common enemy with everything they had, these people were willing to die for their beliefs and for their freedom of choice.
That is not what is happening today, the US and its allies in the war on terror are fighting in places that don't care(understand or want democracy), they view us as occupiers and targets of oppurtunity. We seem to think that if we present "democracy" to everybody than they will leap at the chance to control their own destiny but in reality that is not working out like we thought it would. Their are some places in the world where equality is not viewed as essential or desirable and what is thought to be important is the DIFFERENCES between people, not what is COMMON.

 

[Ron Earp]

Joey Dean , having owned a rusty Jensen during a brief gloomy period in my life, I can feel your pain!

Is there another kind of Jensen that I don't know about? All Jensens want to do is lie in a field and rust.

Back to you regular program!

R

 

[JimmyMac]

This sounds like the January blues festival !
I guess that we have established that we are ALL mates here so lets get back to 289's and 40's. and have some fun for a change.