Tucson

[Bill Musarra]

Jim,
I am not trying to interject anything toward you, or pick on you,,,,,, but, I think we need to look at some things a little differently. For instance it was the liberals(for lack of a better word) during the Kennedy assasination that tried to blame conservatives(their words) for his death in the first days that followed the shooting.They blamed an ad in the Dalas news paper that was talking about a treaty????? We all know that it turned out to be a comunist sympathyser Lee Harvey Oswald. The shooter in Tuson is a wacko, who has a camoflage tent in the corner of his back yard that contains an alter with a skull and shriveled oranges. There is a lot more that I can't remember off hand, but it goes to show this guy is wacko and had nothing to do with Palin. If you wanted to show no partiality, you would have added the postings of "Boy Blue" from The daily Cosa(sp?) which were also removed after the shooting. For those that don't know, the Cos is a rather radical left wing site(my words). Or the memo about the need to pin this on the tea partiers.
I am not trying to stir things up. Truly I am not, but we don't need to try and interject politics into something that involves a nut case. We as humans are sometimes too quick to jump to conclusions about things before we give the law enforcement a chance to sort things out. Next thing you know someone will be quoting us as fact.
There will be a lot of hyperbole about this as it is. We need to keep our cool and not inject politics or humor into a tragic circumstance. We have to remember these people had familys that are being torn apart with this event. Lets just cool it O K???

Bill

 

[Jeff Young]

John-F-Kennedy.net - Wanted For Treason

 

[Charlie Farley]

I was going to tell you a story.
But on reflection, it's too painful.
I fully understand what the relatives must be going through,
with ' sudden death ' , including the killer's family.
Some things are more important than Cars & Girls.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

One of the many things that is so troubling about this (for me) is the apparent "focus" on a Representative being killed as casting a shadow over the same level of loss for the other lives ended that day. For the penalty to be worse for a group of ineffectual individuals over any other human compounds the grief in this case.

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I can’t even imagine what the next knee-jerk reaction will be from this, yet people are senselessly (redundant term in this context) murdered every day with not a second thought it. It would almost appear that murder is more acceptable as long as it doesn't involve a public official as the victim. Perhaps this 'special' status is why they no longer feel accountable to the public any more.

 

[Jim Craik]

Bill,

Your comments appear fair to me.

This incredably sad incedent appears to be due to a mentally ill person with a semi-automatic weapon.

That said, anyone in Arizona over the last year had to be aware of the Palin/Tea Party vitriol and outright hate shown to this fairly elected politican.

How much this "target, re-load, take back, help remove by shooting a fully automatic weapon" talk effected a weak mind is unknown. But trying to say it is a coincidence may be a stretch as well.

 

[40 Bud]

Bill, thank you for trying to bring a little sanity to this affair. Unfortunately some idiots cannot pass up an excuse to politicize anything. That little 9 year old who was cut down by this idiot is the most heart breaking part of this tragedy.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

It IS heartbreaking. But even mentally ill people quite frequently know right from wrong, and it is hard indeed to conceive of anything more wrong than what just happened in Arizona.

And thanks to those above who asked to leave the politics aside. Maybe in a few weeks... but not now, please.

 

[Jim Craik]

Unfortunately some idiots cannot pass up an excuse to politicize anything.

Posted by Bud

Politicise an assasination attempt on a politicion?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Posted by Bud

Politicise an assasination attempt on a politicion?

To use a terrible act by a mentally disturbed person to make accusations of hate by the opposing political party. Does that about sum it up? Palin and or the Tea party don't preach hate. I am ashamed to say that we have a sheriff (Clarence Dupnik) that used the stage of this terrible act to further his political agenda. Anyone who does this ought to be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Chris P.]

To use a terrible act by a mentally disturbed person to make accusations of hate by the opposing political party. Does that about sum it up? Palin and or the Tea party don't preach hate. I am ashamed to say that we have a sheriff (Clarence Dupnik) that used the stage of this terrible act to further his political agenda. Anyone who does this ought to be ashamed of themselves.

They may not preach hate, but they speak hateful words every time they open their mouths. These are the people that are supposed to represent us. Everyday they mention the greatness of our founding fathers but can't seem to emulate the very thing they preach in that case. They look up to our founding fathers and, in their minds anyway, speak as if we should be looking up to themselves as well. When they conduct themselves in the manner that they do, things like this are bound to happen because after all, people ARE looking up to them just as they wanted. Maybe not in this case, but maybe. Either way, it needs to be viewed as a wake up call for the current state of affairs.

We all know this is terrible. I myself have two little girls and I almost wept openly when I found out about the beautiful little girl who was caught up in this. Don't use that as an excuse, though, to hide from a big problem in this country: our government and media is increasingly dwindling in maturity and responsibility.

If anyone is going to say that "liberals" are blowing this all out of proportion, trying to pin this deed on Palin, Limbaugh, or whomever, it is just as easy to say that they are blowing out of proportion the simple thing that is being said: the current state of politics is getting out of hand. Many people out there just want to point out the irresponsibility,immaturity, and general lack of tact that many politicians seem to possess. Why did Palin and others change their websites after this? If it had nothing to do with it, why pull it all?

Of course Limbaugh is going to paint the left as political opportunists for speaking out about this; he's part of the very problem. His livelihood and career depend upon it.

This was a deranged man. That does not negate the possibility that the nasty political undertones in this country may have pushed him just that last bit to finally act. Again, he was deranged - that doesn't mean he solely acts alone by his own will - he could very well have heard Sarah's voice in his head, or anyone else's for that matter.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

They may not preach hate, but they speak hateful words every time they open their mouths. These are the people that are supposed to represent us. Everyday they mention the greatness of our founding fathers but can't seem to emulate the very thing they preach in that case. They look up to our founding fathers and, in their minds anyway, speak as if we should be looking up to themselves as well. When they conduct themselves in the manner that they do, things like this are bound to happen because after all, people ARE looking up to them just as they wanted. Maybe not in this case, but maybe. Either way, it needs to be viewed as a wake up call for the current state of affairs.

We all know this is terrible. I myself have two little girls and I almost wept openly when I found out about the beautiful little girl who was caught up in this. Don't use that as an excuse, though, to hide from a big problem in this country: our government and media is increasingly dwindling in maturity and responsibility.

If anyone is going to say that "liberals" are blowing this all out of proportion, trying to pin this deed on Palin, Limbaugh, or whomever, it is just as easy to say that they are blowing out of proportion the simple thing that is being said: the current state of politics is getting out of hand. Many people out there just want to point out the irresponsibility,immaturity, and general lack of tact that many politicians seem to possess. Why did Palin and others change their websites after this? If it had nothing to do with it, why pull it all?

Of course Limbaugh is going to paint the left as political opportunists for speaking out about this; he's part of the very problem. His livelihood and career depend upon it.

This was a deranged man. That does not negate the possibility that the nasty political undertones in this country may have pushed him just that last bit to finally act. Again, he was deranged - that doesn't mean he solely acts alone by his own will - he could very well have heard Sarah's voice in his head, or anyone else's for that matter.

Or maybe he heard Obama when he was running for office!
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.” He heard Obama's voice!

Now, Isn't that equally as stupid as what you just said?

 

[Nick]

Palin and or the Tea party don't preach hate. .

To give Palin some credit she knew what she was doing was wrong or why would she have taken the Website down.

"After Rep. Giffords shot in Arizona, Palin's 'Take Back the 20' goes down"

Hopefully all politicians from all parties will watch this reasoned prophetic interview by Gabrielle Giffords and in future think more about what consequences their actions may have.

YouTube - Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Talks Palin Cross Hairs

 

[Graham]

They may not preach hate, but they speak hateful words every time they open their mouths. These are the people that are supposed to represent us. Everyday they mention the greatness of our founding fathers but can't seem to emulate the very thing they preach in that case. They look up to our founding fathers and, in their minds anyway, speak as if we should be looking up to themselves as well. When they conduct themselves in the manner that they do, things like this are bound to happen because after all, people ARE looking up to them just as they wanted. Maybe not in this case, but maybe. Either way, it needs to be viewed as a wake up call for the current state of affairs.

We all know this is terrible. I myself have two little girls and I almost wept openly when I found out about the beautiful little girl who was caught up in this. Don't use that as an excuse, though, to hide from a big problem in this country: our government and media is increasingly dwindling in maturity and responsibility.

If anyone is going to say that "liberals" are blowing this all out of proportion, trying to pin this deed on Palin, Limbaugh, or whomever, it is just as easy to say that they are blowing out of proportion the simple thing that is being said: the current state of politics is getting out of hand. Many people out there just want to point out the irresponsibility,immaturity, and general lack of tact that many politicians seem to possess. Why did Palin and others change their websites after this? If it had nothing to do with it, why pull it all?

Of course Limbaugh is going to paint the left as political opportunists for speaking out about this; he's part of the very problem. His livelihood and career depend upon it.

This was a deranged man. That does not negate the possibility that the nasty political undertones in this country may have pushed him just that last bit to finally act. Again, he was deranged - that doesn't mean he solely acts alone by his own will - he could very well have heard Sarah's voice in his head, or anyone else's for that matter.

Chris,

Good words there. The rhetoric used by many right wing politicians is the rhetoric of exclusionism and division. Yes Obama has said some pretty stupid things in his time (as per Al's statement), but not with anything near the regularity of his political opponents.

To remove the devisive statements from one's website is to accept that they should NOT have been there in the first place. This is an absolute, and cannot be argued, otherwise why take them down at all... If they weren't distastful before the attack, then they shouldn't be distasteful afterwards...etc...

By removing the content from the web, they have admitted guilt for something, but quite what that something is is another matter.

No way would Limbaug or Palin (I believe) want the attack to happen, that is obvious to all. What they are guilty of is the use of the worst kind of gung-ho rhetoric that has come back to bite them in the arse, and they will have to live with that forever...

 

[Keith]

I totally concur with the idea that a campaign using such evocative terms in a volatile environment could lead to an incident such as this. I do not blame Palin but I can criticise her (or her advisors) lack of vigilance and subsequent judgement. I blame the marketing runts that come up with this shit to start with and it is entirely possible that only a passing glance was ever given before the campaign hit the streets. The fact that we have all seemed to have lost much respect for each other these past few years, in my opinion, stems largely from the continuing subliminal messages handed down to us by spin doctors and marketeers who are social engineering for commercial gain. I'm not even sure politicians realise that they are so manipulated by these marketeers and media types. To be brutally honest, there is an opportunity here to re-evaluate the role of these untermensch and their role in the decline of Western Society - the totally unacceptable face of capitalism. If you think I am plain wrong - please feel free to respond but I have always trusted my instincts and I have felt this way about that industry and their lack of morals for some years. As I am old school, I will respect every comment both positive and negative. Of course, nowadays it's the bright (and undereducated) young things that come up with this stuff - and it's no wonder that citizens of a more responsible age and ability have been shunted off to make way for this younger, aggressive and completely amoral approach to selling and attitude shaping - the spring chickens make more money with their "fresh" approach. Naturally, I will welcome anyone on this board that is experienced in that industry that may be able to place a more positive light on this increasingly sinister trade.

 

[Pat]

It sounds to me that many of you are condemning hate speech with more hate speech.
It also appears to me to be a general media effort to score political points out of a tragedy. If he had run his automobile into the crowd would you have sought to ban those?
This is clearly the act of a deranged individual. The local news here indicated that Rep. Giffords had previously snubbed the shooter at some event and he had some obsession with her grammar. Linking Palin to this is absurd as blaming the Australian floods on her. As noted, the left wing Daily KOS had vitriol directed at Rep. Giffords because she generally too conservative and didn't vote for Ms. Pelosi. But they seem to have escaped criticism. There is no evidence to date that the assailant has any link whatsoever to The Daily KOS, talk radio, Palin, Tea Party and try to forge a linkage at this point is speculative at best, and counter-hate mongering at it’s worst. The fact pattern simply isn’t there. To heat up the rhetoric with a speculative blame-game doesn't serve anyone well.
However, for me the disturbing thing is that we have culturally evolved to a position of "none of my business", "don't get involved", "don't discuss" with those suffering serious mental illness. People fear they will be labeled as something or sued if they try to do something about these types of situations. The shooter was seen as a threat to the community, expelled from college, rejected from the military, and frightened others. The signs were there but for politically correct, self-protective or whatever motives, the family/community did not take action and the consequences were tragic. It's the Fort Hood shooting all over again (without the calls for restraint on judgment).
Family, friends and the community need to be able to get psychiatric help to those obviously on the brink without fear of libel or other litigation. We have very clear laws about the dangerously unstable owning a gun. We have very strict laws (some say too restrictive) about what it takes to declare somone incompetent to own a gun.
Thoughts and prayers for those affected.

 

[Damian]

Veek I was about to go off on one of my rants (as I am prone to do) but you have delicately put in words (backed with some of the facts about the shooter and his past that NON SEEM TO POST or CHOOSE TO IGNORE) how I feel.

 

[Graham]

I totally concur with the idea that a campaign using such evocative terms in a volatile environment could lead to an incident such as this. I do not blame Palin but I can criticise her (or her advisors) lack of vigilance and subsequent judgement. I blame the marketing runts that come up with this shit to start with and it is entirely possible that only a passing glance was ever given before the campaign hit the streets. The fact that we have all seemed to have lost much respect for each other these past few years, in my opinion, stems largely from the continuing subliminal messages handed down to us by spin doctors and marketeers who are social engineering for commercial gain. I'm not even sure politicians realise that they are so manipulated by these marketeers and media types. To be brutally honest, there is an opportunity here to re-evaluate the role of these untermensch and their role in the decline of Western Society - the totally unacceptable face of capitalism. If you think I am plain wrong - please feel free to respond but I have always trusted my instincts and I have felt this way about that industry and their lack of morals for some years. As I am old school, I will respect every comment both positive and negative. Of course, nowadays it's the bright (and undereducated) young things that come up with this stuff - and it's no wonder that citizens of a more responsible age and ability have been shunted off to make way for this younger, aggressive and completely amoral approach to selling and attitude shaping - the spring chickens make more money with their "fresh" approach. Naturally, I will welcome anyone on this board that is experienced in that industry that may be able to place a more positive light on this increasingly sinister trade.

You are, of course, right keith. When I vote for an official, I am voting for him / her, NOT the unelected backroom spin doctors and "marketing" flunkeys that seem to come with every elected official these days. Thanks to these "bright young things" debate is subsumed by rhetoric and the skill of the punchline has become the new "debate"...

hmmm.....

 

[Chris P.]

Or maybe he heard Obama when he was running for office!
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.” He heard Obama's voice!

Now, Isn't that equally as stupid as what you just said?

Al, why do you have to become defensive? If you read my post, I was being very general overall, but speaking more about the current specific topic of the political right. Myself, and many others, are talking about the general undertones in political discourse, not one or two specific actions like bullseyes on websites. Those should be relatively benign (as should the words that Obama spoke.) Beck has joked about poisoning Pelosi, Limbaugh has said something as harsh about Obama... they may rarely go that far, but they do, and they are generally hateful otherwise. These, and actual political figures, are the people that the general public look to for political "knowledge" and are easily swayed. This has been going on for a long time and getting worse.

 

[Pat]

If you look at this fellow's mug shot, he appears to be just capable of receiving shoot-to-kill orders from a bowl of Rice Crispies than any website. As I mentioned earlier, I believe we need to redirect the rhetoric to something useful in addressing the societal treatment of those with serious mental illness.

Here are some frightening parallels.

Mark David Chapman Mark David Chapman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jared Lee Loughner Jared Lee Loughner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chris P.]

It sounds to me that many of you are condemning hate speech with more hate speech.
It also appears to me to be a general media effort to score political points out of a tragedy. If he had run his automobile into the crowd would you have sought to ban those?
This is clearly the act of a deranged individual. The local news here indicated that Rep. Giffords had previously snubbed the shooter at some event and he had some obsession with her grammar. Linking Palin to this is absurd as blaming the Australian floods on her. As noted, the left wing Daily KOS had vitriol directed at Rep. Giffords because she generally too conservative and didn't vote for Ms. Pelosi. But they seem to have escaped criticism. There is no evidence to date that the assailant has any link whatsoever to The Daily KOS, talk radio, Palin, Tea Party and try to forge a linkage at this point is speculative at best, and counter-hate mongering at it’s worst. The fact pattern simply isn’t there. To heat up the rhetoric with a speculative blame-game doesn't serve anyone well.
However, for me the disturbing thing is that we have culturally evolved to a position of "none of my business", "don't get involved", "don't discuss" with those suffering serious mental illness. People fear they will be labeled as something or sued if they try to do something about these types of situations. The shooter was seen as a threat to the community, expelled from college, rejected from the military, and frightened others. The signs were there but for politically correct, self-protective or whatever motives, the family/community did not take action and the consequences were tragic. It's the Fort Hood shooting all over again (without the calls for restraint on judgment).
Family, friends and the community need to be able to get psychiatric help to those obviously on the brink without fear of libel or other litigation. We have very clear laws about the dangerously unstable owning a gun. We have very strict laws (some say too restrictive) about what it takes to declare somone incompetent to own a gun.
Thoughts and prayers for those affected.

Boy have you misread things. Who said this guy didn't need help? Who said he's not a psychopath? Who's using hate speech to condemn hate speech? Who's talking about banning anything? Stop making things up just feel like you won a debate. If you're talking about the media, then think before you write because what you wrote was directed at us on this website, not the media.

Linking Palin to this is NOT absurd. How could you say that? Linking Palin doesn't have to mean that the ONLY reason why he did this was because of Palin. Think, man. Most people don't act because of one and only one occurance or thought. Again, she herself let her website be changed after this. Why do you think? Maybe you should take that up with her.

To play the devil's advocate here because it needs to be said - of course you won't find a link to Palin or Limbaugh or any of the others... it's easy to hear them every day on the radio AND TV.