Tucson

[Frank3]

I was bothered after hearing about this shooting because my second thought was about what this very thread has become , left - right - left - right .

Having had a friend just fall over dead the other day . My first reaction was that of being upset about more death , and feeling for the the people that survive the victims of this aimless shooting .
Obviously this guy had his reasons for shooting there , at that time . But he randomly just shot people !
As I read on , I found a Judge , and a Politician as victims . My wife pointed out the Representative was a democrat , and I realized this conversation was going to be the focus . Not the tragic loss of life .
SIX PEOPLE DIED !

And I'm sorry but we here in America cause more trouble with some of our laws .
You can buy a firearm without proper instruction , or training . Like that which you would get by growing up around them all your life and being taught respect for the weapon , and anything you may aim it at , or respect for yourself .
Same with alcohol , not a drop until your 21 , then have at it ! With out being taught . You treat things differently when its a way of life . Nothing to see 9 or 10 year old driving a tractor or combine , or a farm truck , or carrying a shotgun around here .
Quite on the contrary , we give our kids the experience of killing for fun , without remorse , in the form X-Box or GameBoy etc. . And let them go off to decide morals for themselves .
But I haven't heard any mention of how the guy was brought up , or who raised him . It must be the governments fault . Not the community in which he grew up , or even the house hold ! No one is responsible for their own actions , and its not P C to suggest they are .

As far as the politicians are concerned , THEY ALL use similar language .
The pulling of adds is always done when they suddenly appear in bad taste .
Palin portrays herself as an outdoors type , and is looking for the NRA vote .
Its all on TV , and as I keep telling my kids , if its on TV its just a show - nothing in that box is real . Believe half of what you see , and none of what you hear . and if you see it on a TV screen , chances are its not the hole truth , or even based in truth .

My thoughts and prayers are with all involved , and that includes us .

 

[Keith]

Frank - good thoughtful post my friend. As you rightly say, these issues often fall into the left/right rhetoric and nothing much ever happens except the victims are always left with being the victims. The blame game is so strong these days that it usually blinds the participants to the obvious.

Time perhaps to learn, to reflect and to contemplate that what seemed right and correct in the past may not stand the test of these trying times.

Time for some joined up thinking...

 

[David Morton]

Frank.
I'd like to be associated with your comments and without re opening the gun debate on this website , here in Great Britain I for one and most disagree with the right to bear arms.
That said we too have had our share of gun tragedies in recent times and yes, I doubt it could have been prevented. Kieths comment - time to reflect, and IMHO dispose of some of the PC thinking.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,
I do not recall anyone here saying the shooter was from the right. I have said and do believe the shooter was influnced by the retoric from the right during the last election.

I guess Tim is not going to answere the question, so Al or anyone else:

Why do you think that the former VP candidate and the Arizona Governer continually used gun and shooting referances when talking about the Demo candidates during the last election?

We had the "gun sight targets, take our country back, don't retreat, reload, help remove Representative Giffords by shooting a fully automatic weapon and Second Amendment solutions"

So, Al why were they continually using this sort of talk. Were they trying to gain support from people who like this sort of talk, trying to raise money from gun folks or perhaps they meant just what thay said.

Please give us your thoughts.

Jim, A lot of people use a circle with crossed lines to reference spots on a map, surveyors etc. I have drawn maps and marked the end destination that way. I have had no intention of anyone killing the people in the spot marked because it was usually my house. If you intend to read more into the markings than a candidate that should be opposed have at it! I gave you credit for better than that. The weapon was a semi auto pistol, it takes a long time to fire 19 shots and hit something, probably 20 seconds or more, had someone been armed perhaps the damage would have be less. Being the Mecca of Prejudice and Bigotry, I don't know why everyone wasn't armed!

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I was bothered after hearing about this shooting because my second thought was about what this very thread has become , left - right - left - right .

Having had a friend just fall over dead the other day . My first reaction was that of being upset about more death , and feeling for the the people that survive the victims of this aimless shooting .
Obviously this guy had his reasons for shooting there , at that time . But he randomly just shot people !
As I read on , I found a Judge , and a Politician as victims . My wife pointed out the Representative was a democrat , and I realized this conversation was going to be the focus . Not the tragic loss of life .
SIX PEOPLE DIED !

And I'm sorry but we here in America cause more trouble with some of our laws .
You can buy a firearm without proper instruction , or training . Like that which you would get by growing up around them all your life and being taught respect for the weapon , and anything you may aim it at , or respect for yourself .
Same with alcohol , not a drop until your 21 , then have at it ! With out being taught . You treat things differently when its a way of life . Nothing to see 9 or 10 year old driving a tractor or combine , or a farm truck , or carrying a shotgun around here .
Quite on the contrary , we give our kids the experience of killing for fun , without remorse , in the form X-Box or GameBoy etc. . And let them go off to decide morals for themselves .
But I haven't heard any mention of how the guy was brought up , or who raised him . It must be the governments fault . Not the community in which he grew up , or even the house hold ! No one is responsible for their own actions , and its not P C to suggest they are .

As far as the politicians are concerned , THEY ALL use similar language .
The pulling of adds is always done when they suddenly appear in bad taste .
Palin portrays herself as an outdoors type , and is looking for the NRA vote .
Its all on TV , and as I keep telling my kids , if its on TV its just a show - nothing in that box is real . Believe half of what you see , and none of what you hear . and if you see it on a TV screen , chances are its not the hole truth , or even based in truth .

My thoughts and prayers are with all involved , and that includes us .

Frank, You hit the nail on the head, 6 human beings died, for no reason, and 13 others are harmed in varying degrees up to the terrible head injury to Giffords. I hope she recovers. They should be our concern, and nothing else.

 

[Jim Craik]

There have been assinations worldwide, Mexico, who's gun laws are super strict (Full background check along with multiple evaluations, and only one place to purchase guns)

Posted by Al

U.S. Guns Smuggled Into Mexico Aid Drug War

</NYT_HEADLINE>
<NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0">By TIM WEINER and GINGER THOMPSON

</NYT_BYLINE>
<NYT_LINKS_ONSITE type="main" version="1.0"><!--Unknown nyt_related_links_list(nyt_related_links_list)--><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=9 rowSpan=21>

</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=5></TD></TR><!--Unknown nyt_related_links_list(nyt_related_links_list)--><TR><TD colSpan=5>

</TD></TR><TR><TD width=1 bgColor=#cccccc>

</TD><TD width=5>

</TD><TD width=209>

[SIZE=-1]Join a Discussion on Drug Policy[/SIZE]

</TD><TD width=5>

</TD><TD width=1 bgColor=#cccccc>

</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=5 height=1>

</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=5></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></NYT_LINKS_ONSITE><!--plsfield:TEXT--><NYT_TEXT>

EXICO CITY, May 18 — Though public attention focuses on the drugs smuggled from Mexico to the north, officials here are increasingly concerned by an ever more lethal flow of guns south from the United States.

It looks like there is more than one place to get guns.

 

[Jim Craik]

Jim, A lot of people use a circle with crossed lines to reference spots on a map, surveyors etc. I have drawn maps and marked the end destination that way.

Posted by Al

Al, do the surveyors call them TARGETS?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Posted by Al

Al, do the surveyors call them TARGETS?

As a matter of fact, they do. They were targets for a change in elected officials, nothing more, nothing less. That's all, have fun, I'm talking to a rock.

 

[Jim Craik]

Al

The rock wants to know if surveyors talk of Second Amendment solutions?

 

[Jim Craik]

Al

I'm sorry, at least you attempted to answer the question, I'll give you credit for that!

Thanks

 

[Nick]

Quite on the contrary , we give our kids the experience of killing for fun , without remorse , in the form X-Box or GameBoy etc. . And let them go off to decide morals for themselves .
But I haven't heard any mention of how the guy was brought up , or who raised him . It must be the governments fault . Not the community in which he grew up , or even the house hold ! No one is responsible for their own actions , and its not P C to suggest they are .

.

Frank,

Have to agree.

One of the most popular Christmas presents in the UK this year among 8-9 year old school boys at a local school.

YouTube - Call of Duty: Black Ops - Customization Trailer

Imagine the uproar if governments were to bring in legislation to try to deal with the problem.

 

[John Milmont]

Posted by Al

U.S. Guns Smuggled Into Mexico Aid Drug War


<nyt_byline type=" " version="1.0">By TIM WEINER and GINGER THOMPSON

</nyt_byline>
<nyt_links_onsite type="main" version="1.0"><!--Unknown nyt_related_links_list(nyt_related_links_list)--><table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="21" width="9">

</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
</td></tr><!--Unknown nyt_related_links_list(nyt_related_links_list)--><tr><td colspan="5">

</td></tr><tr><td width="1" bgcolor="#cccccc">

</td><td width="5">

</td><td width="209">

[SIZE=-1]Join a Discussion on Drug Policy[/SIZE]

</td><td width="5">

</td><td width="1" bgcolor="#cccccc">

</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5" bgcolor="#cccccc" height="1">

</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
</td></tr><tr><td colspan="5">
</td></tr></tbody></table></nyt_links_onsite><!--plsfield:TEXT--><nyt_text>

EXICO CITY, May 18 — Though public attention focuses on the drugs smuggled from Mexico to the north, officials here are increasingly concerned by an ever more lethal flow of guns south from the United States.

It looks like there is more than one place to get guns.

When i first read this excerpt, I thought this story might have stem from a different headline that i think was published a year or so ago; when it was either the ATF or FBI, used choice words making it sound like '90 percent of guns entering Mexico were coming from the US.' But then I saw it was from 2001...

But they did a real good job of planting the idea that we are supplying the Mexican dug cartels with weapons; when in fact, this statement was a headline taken out of context to make it sound like just that.
The truth is that 90% of TRACED guns come from the US. The thing about this is they only send back guns they suspect are US in origin for tracing, so i would hope that figure would be high.

But anyway, it is true that US bought guns are being smuggled into Mexico. But because of our laws and taxes, I believe this is a very small amount. Wouldn't it be easier for a cartel to smuggle in fully-automatic AK-47's (a gun we cannot legally even acquire here) from Romania to a cartel friendly port in mexico? Where do you think their RPG's and heavy machine guns are coming from? They aren't just crossing the boarder and going into bob's gun shop to pick those up. I bet you didn't even know they had those.

I read the entire 2001 article that your excerpt was from, and just look at the incorrect statements and questionable language used in it:

"</nyt_text>Most of the guns in Mexico were bought in the United States"
- this is completely false.

"It is magnified, he said, by the increasing number of high-powered semiautomatic weapons and assault rifles entering the country."
- which country does he mean? when this article was written, the Clinton assault weapons ban was still in effect. So, by the media's definition of an assault weapon, there was no legal assault weapons being brought to the united states at this time; so i guess he means Mexico? Where are these assault weapons originally coming from?

"A $125 handgun sold in San Diego sells for three times that sum in Tijuana,"
- what the hell kind of hand gun costs only $125?! No real handgun is this cheap.
<nyt_text>
Don't you hate it when baseless fear mongering is used to scare people into getting something? I think the article you posted and the '90 percent' thing are great examples of this.



</nyt_text>

 

[TimB]

Al,
I do not recall anyone here saying the shooter was from the right. I have said and do believe the shooter was influnced by the retoric from the right during the last election.

I guess Tim is not going to answere the question, so Al or anyone else:

.

Jim I didn't feel the need because I know you are smarter than that and capable of opening Google. This isn't a contest to see who can get the best jab in. To claim the type of website or rhetoric used by former Gov Palin is anyting new to politics is disingenuous. For example here is one produced by a democratic campaign

 

[Graham]

In the interest of joined up and balanced debate, "the democrats conveniently forget that defeated Democrat Congressman Harry Mitchell did the same thing to JD Hayworth a few years ago right here in Arizona, running a campaign ad featuring JD Hayworth in the crosshairs of a rifle."

Not my words, but taken from a piece by Rachel Alexander on the right wing website www.intellectualconservative.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epdJWNA65oY&feature=youtu.be

However, if this is true (and I can't vouch for its veracity), then it does just go to show that the current level of gutter politics just gets lower and lower, and the divide gets greater and greater.

It is becoming almost impossible for opposing parties to agree on anything, and that includes over here in Old Blighty...

And that, my friends is a damned shame

 

[Jim Craik]

John, Tim

Thanks for clearing that up. Please let us know what they meant by "don't retreat, reload, help remove Representative Giffords by shooting a fully automatic weapon and Second Amendment solutions".

 

[Jim Craik]

Graham,

If this is true (Right wing media has a way of making thing up), but if it is true, this person should be fully exposed, held accountable and added to the folks who's political future is over!

 

[Jeff Young]

Yes, it is true.

After Tucson, the Right has gone and dredged up every time a politician on the left has used the words "target" or "reload" or the imagery of a bull's eye. All of which are inappropriate.

Both sides do it. Both sides really need to stop. Both sides probably will not.

 

[Graham]

Both sides do it. Both sides really need to stop. Both sides probably will not.

Yep. I have to agree with you there Jeff. 'Nuff said

 

[Garry]

The real shame in all of this is the discussion has been diverted from the real issue and that is mental illness. I suspect that is the case as that is a problem among all of us and with respect to any mental health specialists, we are no closer to solving the problem of diagnosis and treatment at an early age than we were when Freud was around. The sole treatment available today is to give "suspects" drugs that we think work, but we haven't figured out how or the long-term consequences of that drug use. Other than doping up the victims of mental disease, we have no other proven treatments to help these sick people.
I am not forgiving this type of crime and absolving the perpetrator of the punishment due an outrageous act like this. However, a reasonable man has to admit that mental disease is scary and there but for the grace of God, any one of us could be a victim or have a child that is the same. Sadly, the pundits with an axe to sharpen are using this as an agenda machine and ignoring the real problem of mental health in the world.
Garry

 

[Jim Craik]

Gary, +1