Tucson

[Jim Craik]

Guys,

I must say I'm somewhat supprised at the reaction to this sad affair. Trying to defend the undefencable is a fools game. Any politicion of any party who implies that violence against political opponents is a solution to our problems should be exposed for what they are. Incredably selfish and possably criminal.

I did not just start attacking this type of activity after this most recent tragedy, go back and look, many times I questioned this "take back, re-load, Second Amendment" talk. Few seemed to comment or care.

Weather or not the retoric from this last campaign had an effect on this very sad shooting we may never know, but impling that violence is an answer to a political race is wrong. Can we all agree THIS MUST STOP!

 

[Chris P.]

Jim I didn't feel the need because I know you are smarter than that and capable of opening Google. This isn't a contest to see who can get the best jab in. To claim the type of website or rhetoric used by former Gov Palin is anyting new to politics is disingenuous. For example here is one produced by a democratic campaign

Again, to play the devil's advocate here: That is an extremely valid point. I believe Palin's similar chart, taken by itself, is entirely benign and innocent. The problem is, that's not the only thing Palin and others have thrown out there. Their whole strategy is make people think that the other side is worthless and an enemy to themselves and America, and then to go so far as to back that up with the 2nd amendment. Look at what they say; how strong their words have been in relation to this event. Now think about what they would have to say if they actually were to go so far as telling someone to pull the trigger. You really don't need to stray too far from their current rhetoric to reach that point. That's how bad this has become, but many people don't want to see that because it's the only way they know how to approach the debate. It's really too sad.

 

[Pat]

I’m sorry fellows but I’m sick of this silliness. A nine year old child born on September 11th was slaughtered by a madman, we should live and breathe her life story. Or, the first woman Congressperson ever to be shot through the head by the same crazy butcher, we and the media should dwell on every detail of her experience and share thoughts and prayers for her recovery. Shouldn’t there be coverage of (research psychiatrist) Dr. E. Fuller Torreys' book The Insanity Offense, that reveals one percent of the seriously mentally ill are violent and they account for half the rampage murders in America. Instead I see Second Amendment ranting and Sarah Palin raving. Couldn’t we spotlight Marian Edelman with the Children's Defense Fund after she said, "We're losing eight children and teenagers a day to violence, that's the equivalent of the massacre at Virginia Tech every four days."
For those of you that indicated you didn't understand my posts on the subject, you're right... you dont.

 

[Jack]

Thank you for that one. Right on!

 

[Doug S.]

Palin and or the Tea party don't preach hate.

Really, Al?

Well, maybe not "hate", so to speak, but there's certainly plenty of inflamatory rhetoric to come from the radical right, and Palin certainly adds her share. What would you call "Don't retreat, RELOAD!!!"? Yep, guess who! :furious:

I've spent the better part of 3 days trying to figure out what caused this guy to go postal....like the whackos who shot up Columbine H.S., it appears he was an "outsider", someone who wasn't liked or even likeable. Nothing new....but sad, nonetheless. The guy was messed up from an early age, and REALLY messed in the recent past (even before his terrible act of violence).

Now, let's look at the effects that inflamatory rhetoric can elicit from a poorly prepared, ostracized kook.....it's impossible to believe that he could NOT have heard the vitrioloc discourse that accompanied the most recent elections, and as impressionable as he must have been, given his violent tendencies to begin with, it's not at all difficult for me to make a connection, however attenuated it might appear to those who don't want to admit it might exist.

Just IMHO, though......but, think about it long and hard before you say it could NOT have happened.

Oh, yeah....give Jim a break....he's as sincere in his convictions as the rest of you are, and if you don't agree with him, that doesn't automatically make him wrong (as much as you might like to think so). As a society, though, this profound polarization can only tear us apart--we really need to find a way to at least be more tolerant of the views of others.

Cheers from Doug!

 

[TimB]

Really, Al?


I've spent the better part of 3 days trying to figure out what caused this guy to go postal....like the whackos who shot up Columbine H.S., it appears he was an "outsider", someone who wasn't liked or even likeable. Nothing new....but sad, nonetheless. The guy was messed up from an early age, and REALLY messed in the recent past (even before his terrible act of violence).

And therin lies the problem we are all trying to make logical sense of an illogical and horrible act that thankfully none of us can understand. Having lost two friends to suicide I was wracked for months trying tofigure it out but as with this mentally ill person there is sometimes no understanding it. To try and simplify it down to rhetoric being the cause while atractive to some is not realistic. Correlation does not equal causation. As has been posted earlier we need to be focused on supporting the survivors not right vs left pissing contests

 

[Jim Craik]

Veek,

What you say is very true, I check several times a day on the conditions of the injured.
I think there are several reasons why the discussions about mental health and mental health as it relates to crime have not taken place.

First it's very hard to wrap our minds around unusual behavior. What is just odd behavior and what is truly dangerous. It's even harder to discuss.

I know that several people have said that this guy was weird, said odd things and made folks uncomfortable. Unfortunatly that description covers a lot of people. Hell, we have several of those here on our site.

Offering help or forcing help on 100 to get to that 1 person is problematic. Often the very nature of the illness makes the unfortunat folks impossible to help without force.

Another problem with that type of discussion about this particular incident is the gun issue. Everyone here has been tiptoeing around the gun part for very good reasons. We all know were that discussion would go.

If you add to that the question about why a person with these mental problems could buy a gun and a gun with a 20 shot clip. It would degrade rapidly.

I'm afraid any meaningful discussion here is going to have to stay big picture.

 

[Jim Craik]

Veek,

Sorry, I got called away, before I could finish my thoughts.

I'm angry about this sencless shooting.
I'm angry about this poor young girl.
I'm angry about the ruined lives of everyone involved.
I'm angry about the easy access to guns.
I'm angry about a 20 shot clip.
I'm angry that little can be done for the mentally Ill
I'm angry about the easy manner that some people who should
be role models talk about using guns.

Veek, unfortunatly of the above issues only the last one can I do anything about. But we can do something about it and we should. Tell every one you know, Email your friend and representitives, tell them that this sort of talk is not acceptable and it must STOP!

Veek, I'm afraid I can't agree that this is "sillyness"

OK I have donned my Nomex.

 

[Jim Craik]

Great news, Tonight Gabrielle Giffords has scratched her nose and opened her eyes. What wonderful news!

 

[Charlie Farley]

Jim,

" I know that several people have said that this guy was weird, said odd things and made folks uncomfortable. Unfortunatly that description covers a lot of people. Hell, we have several of those here on our site."

Long live weirdness, it gave us all the great musicians, artists and poets we love. LONG LIVE THOSE THAT THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX !!!

You have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[Jim Craik]

Mr Farley,

+1....................But you are still a non-person.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Jim,

From the tone of your reply, i guess your true spirit is coming out at last.
" Non person "
Hmm, tell me, would you welcome the return of gas chambers ?
"Non person" suggests ingrained predujice.
Get your black uniform out and join the sicophantic nazis.
Sieg Heil !!
Vagrant Nazi posing as a liberal, weren't they all, so history tells us.

 

[Jim Craik]

Palin and or the Tea party don't preach hate.

Part of a post by Al

Al, this took place in San Diego California, after loosing the election by approx 20 points, here is how the Tea Party reacts: With HATE! I appolagise for the fat lead in add.
Video: More violent rhetoric to come?

 

[Chris P.]

Veek - I understand and agree with your words. I do have to ask though- after 9/11/2001, did you spend the next few weeks solely thinking only about the victims of that attack? I don't ask that in an antagonistic manner either.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

"But what we can't do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another. As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together."

"If this tragedy prompts reflection and debate, as it should, let's make sure it's worthy of those we have lost. Let's make sure it's not on the usual plane of politics and point scoring and pettiness that drifts away with the next news cycle." President Obama

Some good advice.

 

[Mark Clapp]

I just hate to think that we will have to spend the next few years or more waiting and hearing about the killer's trial. Everyone saw him do it and it probably is on video somewhere. If he is insane, then lock him up in crazy prison for life. If he knew what he was doing then a speedy death sentence (if allowed in AZ) should follow. Either way a quick sentence would send a message to others considering this type of action.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Deleted by me, not appropriate.

 

[Jim Craik]

Al,

Quoting Obama, I'm impressed!

Did you look at the video?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

Did you look at the video?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

I think that it was the best speech he has given, it was thoughtful and had feeling. I didn't like the political rally atmosphere, clapping, cheering, etc, it was a memorial service. I think Obama was surprised by this as well.

 

[Frank3]

The news reports that the shooter's acquaintances said he didn't watch the news , listen to talk radio , or pay particular attention to politics .
But was obsessed with some anti-religious / money movement .
And had exchanges with Giffords in the past , with letters found ... he didn't like her . But nothing specific reported about why they were writing .

Or maybe I heard this wrong . I'm in and out of my truck a lot , and my phones ring a lot .

But it really seems a shame that we'll lose more liberties over this . I would bet the P C police get more authority over the citizens , and the politicians keep on keeping on .
Violence , hate and anger wont be tolerated ... so be careful Mr. Craik .:squint: